Given all of the above does anyone think that there may be a case for routine changes of the ATF at say 3 years which most of my previous cars have recommended - and if so is this a straight drain and swap or a gradual drain and constant top up to prevent air locks - using say double the amount? Silver 2009 HSE

alex_pescaru wrote:

P0741 - Torque converter clutch circuit performance or stuck off
Slip too high at torque converter clutch
Check the transmission oil level and quality
High contact resistance in the connector terminals
Open circuit - Shift lock/unlock circuit - Lock up control solenoid
Failure - Shift lock/unlock - Lock up solenoid
Shift lock/unlock - Stuck in closed position
Check for high contact resistance in the connector terminals between the transmission control module and transmission

P2733 - Transmission fluid pressure solenoid F - solenoid stuck on
Shift lock C1 pressure control - Not engaged in drive
Shift lock C1 pressure control solenoid - Jammed

@Valhalla

I am so glad that a passionate indy like you has the time to share his findings here on the forum. For sure you have your share of problems passing through your service/shop and therefore your experience it's a real gain for the forum!

As for the boxes, the Sonnax has a lot of rebuild kits for this box used in many cars:
http://www.automaticchoice.com/Catalogue/S...005-09.pdf

And some documentation for this box here:
http://www.shinseiauto.com/japanese/transtar/af21tf81sc.pdf
http://www.sonnax.com/system/pdfs/90/original/PRE-ATRA09-RCW.pdf

And about valve body diagnosis here:
http://www.sonnax.com/publications/transmi...-diagnosis

Excellent links - thanks! As it happens, I used some of your earlier links to look at the Sonex valve updates that are on offer. I don't know if the valve blocks that are overhauled and on exchange on Ebay are using these updates? If they are, then they make perfect sense for someone who is out of warranty (and therefore is facing a bill in excess of £1500 for a replacement 'box) and needs their FL2 repaired.

What would be interesting is to find-out whether Aisin themselves have incorporated any of the updates into their recent gearboxes. Given the problems that are now becoming significant in the public domain (there appear to be a few models of car in the Ford-associated range of products, such as the Fusion and Volvo XC50/70, as well as FL2 and some AlfaRomeo autos) then it would be hoped and expected that the production designs would alter rapidly to overcome the issues. This cuts the warranty down by a) slashing the problems on new cars b) replacing good units into failed customer cars in the field, and hence the issues decay down to manageable levels. What this also implies is that the problems are recognised by the vehicle manufacturer and the OEM of the unit that is failing, and therefore legal action is easier to take by the end user. The man who makes his living fixing Landrovers will never go hungry.

Well, finally got the oil last night indirectly from the USA - appears there is some demand for this from Mobil

First surprise this morning was that the oil level in the transmission sump, with the gearbox having recently been run through all gears for 3minutes prior to drain operation and at 35celcius, was no less than 0.85litres over the filler plug level. Having drained this off, the main drain plug released a further 2litres (or very slightly over) of fluid, which is the correct quantity that I was expecting for the TF81. The filler plug does not appear to have been damaged of modified in any way (it was certainly well stuck from "new") so this leads me to the conclusion that;
a) The transmission was either overfilled at the factory
b) The oil level has been topped-up at service (except that the filler plug did not appear to have been disturbed from new)
c) The transmission is draining-down its valveblock and convertor oil in a way that I didn't expect (possibly even cooler matrix drain-down, except that oil temperature is quite low, and that would not normally happen).

Has anyone else had any experience of draining down the Auto 'box, and if so, did the quantity get measured? This could be a cynical attempt to make the unit last a bit longer between services, but my thoughts are - if Aisin wanted 2litres in the sump, then that is for a good reason. The man who makes his living fixing Landrovers will never go hungry.

There are 3 plugs: filler, level and drain.
The filler plug is on top of the box and on the bottom of the box there are 2 plugs, one inside the other.
The fluid level plug is inside the drain plug. In fact the drain plug has a tube upwards inside transmission and the fluid level plug is just a cap that caps the centre of the drain plug.
After you dump the oil (by removing both lower plugs) you install the drain plug, fill it up until it runs out and then install the level plug/cap and add an extra 0.5 liters. Of course any oil is added through the top filler plug.
These extra 0.5 liters will be inside the transmission when the engine will be running during fluid check.
You've dumped the oil when the engine was off, so those 0.5 liters of fluid dripped out.
So, in reality, you've only had 0.35 liters more, or when the engine was running more than the initially supplement of 0.5 liters were necessary until the fluid dripped out.
So the transmission is filled until it drips out with the engine RUNNING. When the engine is off, a lot of oil is running out, oil that normally when the engine is running is inside transmission.

See here:
https://www.freel2.com/gallery/albums/user...Refill.pdf

Thanks for the clarification. The crucial thing, which is what I had suspected, but is also lacking on any of the Volvo or Mazda procedures, is that the fluid level check is made with the engine running in "P". I had tried to find a link to the procedure which you have detailed, but nothing turned-up.

The flushing procedure that I used, and the one that worked for me the best (that is, wasted the least amount of Mobil ATF) was to fully drain-down the sump pan, then remove the ATF cooler upper Norma connection from the stub. Using a 10mm hose on the ATF cooler stub, I was able to lightly pressurise and move clean air through the transmission whilst it was stationary. This purged a further 0.45litres of burnt fluid from the valve block and into the sump pan, which was collected via the main drain plug.

I then refitted the main drain plug (after letting all the burnt fluid drip from the pan for 30minutes) to the correct torque, hand-tightened the drain/level plug, then filled the transmission via the filler hole with just 3litres of new Mobil ATF. The filler is easily accessible under the air cleaner box if the box is lifted slightly from the mounting feet (which allows the engine to run) but a new, clean funnel is necessary to be fitted to the filler hole for the duration of the purge. It was also necessary to use a clean cloth stretched over the funnel inbetween filling, as the risk of debris falling into the transmission is very high - and that is not going to make the transmission shift any better

The Norma connection had a soft plastic stub pipe adapted to it, which was connected to a clear plastic hose. By using 1litre milk cartons, which are translucent, I had the means to collect the purged oil from the hose whilst it was balanced near the back of the engine bay, just behind the air intake trunking from the MAF, and this allowed me to watch the oil quality and level whilst operating the engine from the drivers seat (through the aperture beneath the open bonnet rear edge).

The 3 second rule for each of the gear positions P R N D seemed to work well, as it is possible to make the full selection routine and back, before 1 litre of ATF is expelled. You have to bear in mind that the oil flow does not stop immediately after the engine stops, so leave a "spare" 0.2 litres in the collection container when you stab the "Engine Stop" button!! So each purge cycle removes approximately a litre of old ATF, which was then measured back in through the filler port with new Mobil ATF. That way, the transmission is kept lubricated with enough fluid to prevent the sump pan running dry (between 3litres to 2litres in the sump pan each cycle)

3 full purge cycles of the above (so 6 litres of new ATF has been used so far) was sufficient to have the expelled ATF running clean & red. This was largely a function of driving the maximum amount of old, burnt, fluid from the 'box before adding any new fluid. The oil cooler connection can then be made between the hose and the stub pipe, paying attention to the cleanliness of the stub (so as to prevent damage to the Norma connector)

Adding a further 1litre of ATF (so 7litres in total so far) brings the stationary transmission oil level approximately to the top of the filler/level plug. Using the Landrover procedure to add a further 0.5litres would take the total flush volume to 7.5litres of new Mobil ATF, which at UK current prices is just under £90 after VAT. Running the engine through all the gears again, and back to "P" will get the oil temperature to the specified figure, and hopefully not too much ATF will run from the drain/level plug for the last time it is removed.

I'll let you know tomorrow whether it worked.... The man who makes his living fixing Landrovers will never go hungry.

Thank you for sharing your ideas!

The procedure of draining and replacing the fluid posted 2 posts above is taken from the Topix website.
There is clearly stated that you should run the engine when topping up the fluid.
But your procedure for sure expel a lot more, if not all, quantity of old oil...

But I didn't understood very well: you already performed the procedure or you will?
If you will, could you please put someone to video record it?
Thank you!

PS: Or at least take some pictures. As many as possible... Thanks!

Yes, indeed! I was hoping to get the pictures taken to tomorrow. I thought that I had better make sure that this flushing process works as well as possible.

The line-up of the translucent bottles, from burnt oil on the left, through to new oil on the right (after 6litres of flushing) is quite impressive.

Something that I noticed about the expelled oil from the cooler pipe was that it is incredibly foamy; I had assumed that the Mobil ATF would have some anti-foam properties built into its formulation, but it was quite a surprise to find that each bottle that was removed from the transmission had a lot of foam on its surface. If there is air being trapped in the oil, then this might affect the valve operation. I would have expected to see in the TF-81 sump design a method for removing the entrained air that is in the oil, but this is also missing.

Unfortunately, I have already done the whole procedure, but I can still have photos of the parts that are involved in the bleeding procedure. I also still have a big puddle of ATF under the ramps from where the oil cooler return line adapter blew itself apart on the second stage of flushing.

I still need to put the last 0.5 litres of ATF into the transmission, then give the car a try on the road. I have started an adaptive learning on the P R N D shift engagements at standstill, but I may have a problem getting the coastdown adaption done in Scotland  The man who makes his living fixing Landrovers will never go hungry.

Why did you do that? I mean erasing the learned data in order to relearn PRND and coasting?...
In the end only the oil was changed, not the TCM or the box itself...

The reasoning behind trying an adaption routine was that the valves were clearly showing some sign of sticking prior to the oil change (over the Transmission diagnostic DTC's). I reasoned that the adaption of valve control is not a "one-off" routine when the gearbox is first built; the gearbox is supposed to use a continuous feedback process to monitor control pressures throughout its running life, and perform long-term "trims" to the valve control to ensure that gearchanges remain smooth. Therefore, if the oil has become contaminated over a long time, then it is likely that the valve control will have adjusted slightly at the same time, to compensate for some of the sticking. So now I have good, clean ATF in the valve-block, it is likely that the valve control will need to be re-trimmed back to approximately where it was when the gearbox left the factory.

During the adaption at standstill, I did notice a difference in the way that the gearbox was engaging the gears between R N D, and some of the shifts were quite harsh. All the shifts now seem to be smooth, which will make the owner of the car feel much better about spending a lot of money on ATF.

I still need to fully assess the car on the road - I have had a delay for a while today with other automotive jobs, which means that the engine service is still to be completed before I take the car out onto the roads. The man who makes his living fixing Landrovers will never go hungry.

Assessed the car this evening, and I have mixed feelings as to whether the flush has worked or not. No question about this first drive - all of the shifting problems are gone. I ran "live data" from the TCM over my diagnostic toolset, and watched for control of the solenoids as each gear was selected (so that I could confirm afterwards which operation had definitely caused the problem) as well as oil temperature. As I first posted on this particular car, it is on its second gearbox (first replaced at approximately 18months after all drive lost), and its main issue was upshifts through the lower gear-ratios 1,2,3,4 when the transmission was cold. It did not appear (from the customer) that any problems had been experienced with a warmed transmission. So I was looking for any issues with the oil temp sensor showing lower than 40celcius, and I'm please to report that there was none.

I need to do a series of cold-start runs on this car, as I don't believe that it is possible to catch every scenario at just the right oil temperature, but first impressions here are good

What worries me slightly is that there is one hell of a buzzing coming from the valve-block pressed-steel cover at the front of the transmission when the oil is up to temperature (75celcius) and the car is in "P", "R", or "N". It might be that the forward gears also have this buzzing. This is something that needs investigation, as the new oil should not have affected this, but I don't remember hearing it from before the flushing exercise.

I am going to do a fluid sample tomorrow (fresh oil confirmed as still fresh after first drive) as part of the LR procedure for level checking (in "P" with the oil lukewarm, level plug out and engine running), so only time will tell. The man who makes his living fixing Landrovers will never go hungry.

I had a thought this evening about the FL2, with all of the issues that come up on this forum, not to mention too specifically that it has been a disaster on all accounts with the transmission from start to end;

Given that Halewood is now banging out Evoques like there was no tomorrow, and appreciating the finer detail that the Evoque is nothing but a reclothed FL2, how on earth are LR going to manage their warranty bill for Aisin transmissions and manual DMF's? Maybe this is a bit speculative, but if I had a factory stuck in the middle of an area of great employment need, and that factory only pushed out the same platform irrespective (FL2 and Evoque), then I would want to get the design pretty good from the word "go", wouldn't I?

Unless there was a major design change to either of the two major failing components, you would imagine production stopping fairly soon? If there was a design change in place for Evoque, then the FL2 might just stand a chance at having a decent service replacement for all those failing transmissions? The man who makes his living fixing Landrovers will never go hungry.

My opinion, on forums, most of the people came and complain about problems...
There are fewer people saying how good the car is, because they are out there enjoying it, than the people that come on forums looking for advice on their problems....
Of course, the people here are an exception, because this forum is a special/particular one...
But taking into account that LR2 is near or even past 300.000 pcs, according to VIN serial number, then I believe the transmissions are quite OK. If only 2-3% are with problems, which is more than OK, then this means almost 10.000 pcs with problems (failing trans. or DMFs). I don't think this is the case...
So, in LR's eyes, all is OK, for sure.

Well, I did an oil sample this evening, and it looks as if the oil is staying clean, so there does not appear to be much of the old fluid still being pushed out of the various crevices. This is a good thing, as it shows that the flushing process can be very effective if the time is taken to do the job carefully.

The interesting thing about the final check on the fluid level, is that the Landrover process for the final accounting of the fluid "in circulation" when the engine is running is too low; the LR process would infer that the fluid circulating when the engine is running is 0.5litres (at reference temperature of 65celcius), whereas I have found with this particular car that I have that the fluid in circulation is 0.85litres, which is exactly the amount of fluid that I drained out of the 'box when first removing the level/drain inner plug prior to the flushing process. So this explains where the extra 0.35litres has come from!!!

Final sign-off of cold driveability tomorrow morning before handing back to the customer. If the car has adequate gearchange quality, then he will be happy for a short while, but only time will tell what the long-term effects of the flush have been. The man who makes his living fixing Landrovers will never go hungry.