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attox

Member Since: 24 Jul 2007
Location: Genova
Posts: 93

Re: Driving on snow

boiledgnat wrote:
attox wrote:
Winter is approaching.

Has anybody experienced driving on snow yet?

Sorry, a bit late into this thread, but here's my twopenneth...

I drove on snow at the beginning of the year during my LRE half day awareness. The car was standard with standard tyres, and the snow was loosely packed - only about 5 other cars out on the course that day. The instructor made me do a little test to see the effect of the terrain response unit - firstly to leave it on road use and then accelerate hard. This caused lots of snaking down the track. We then put it into snow mode, and try as I might to lose the back end, it held firm.

So, In my (brief) experience, normal tyres and terrain response will be adequate for most snowy conditions.

Thank you very much, boiledgnat!

that's suffice!

16th Oct 2007 9:28 pm

Goldstone69

Member Since: 17 Sep 2007
Location: Huddersfield
Posts: 403

2007 Freelander 2 TD4 GS Manual Tonga Green

Quote:
So, In my (brief) experience, normal tyres and terrain response will be adequate for most snowy conditions.

That is what i was hoping to hear with the limited snow we get in this country i would have thought the Terrain response and other systems in the FL2 should cope .....it would have been disappointing to think a change to "winter" tyres would be necessary ....realise in Scandinavian countries the"winter" is far more severe and they get heavy snowfall so change of tyre is probably essential.

Last edited by Goldstone69 on 16th Oct 2007 9:38 pm. Edited 1 time in total

16th Oct 2007 9:36 pm

VIKING

Member Since: 22 Sep 2007
Location: Stavern, NORWAY
Posts: 389

2008 Freelander 2 TD4 HSE Auto Caspian Blue

Re: Driving on snow

boiledgnat wrote:

So, In my (brief) experience, normal tyres and terrain response will be adequate for most snowy conditions.

Most snowy conditions? Well, then you are opposing the entire corps of motorjournalists in Norway.
But then again, here we do have snow. (and ice. Lots of it).

Maybe normal tyres are adequate for an occational snowfall that then melts away again.
But if you have months of snow and ice, and intend to maintain the same speed on the road as during the summer, then I seriously doubt normal tyres will do the job.

Some years back I had an Englishman visiting me in the winther. It was snowing seriously, I was keeping 100 kms/h and thought nothing of it. He was just dead silent. As if he couldn't believe it. I asked what it was.

He said: If this weather was in the UK, the traffic would stand completely still.

So maybe we are looking at this tyre-question from different perspectives.

2008 Freelander 2 HSE TD4 Automatic, Caspian Blue, Alpaca, Moon roof, Exclusive pack.

16th Oct 2007 9:37 pm

NightFox

Member Since: 11 May 2007
Location: North Shropshire
Posts: 353

2007 Freelander 2 TD4 SE Manual Tambora Flame

Re: Driving on snow

VIKING wrote:
Some years back I had an Englishman visiting me in the winther. It was snowing seriously, I was keeping 100 kms/h and thought nothing of it. He was just dead silent. As if he couldn't believe it. I asked what it was.

He said: If this weather was in the UK, the traffic would stand completely still.

So maybe we are looking at this tyre-question from different perspectives.

I think so, it's like the way everyone in the UK always moans that when we have a couple of cm of snow, the whole country grinds to a halt, whereas in Scandinavia it's business as normal despite several feet of snow. The fact is, for what snow we do get in this country it doesn't make sense to spend the millions that "colder" countries spend so they can keep going. It's the same with tyres, in Scandinavia you're going to be driving on a lot of snow for a lot of the time, so it makes sense to invest in snow tyres. In the most of the UK however, it's not worth the expense, so we just slow down for a couple of days a year instead.

In fact, that's what I always say when people moan about how "we" can't cope with a couple of inches of snow in the UK - I just ask them if they've got a set of snow tyres.

16th Oct 2007 9:54 pm

attox

Member Since: 24 Jul 2007
Location: Genova
Posts: 93

Re: Driving on snow

VIKING wrote:
boiledgnat wrote:

So, In my (brief) experience, normal tyres and terrain response will be adequate for most snowy conditions.

Most snowy conditions? Well, then you are opposing the entire corps of motorjournalists in Norway.
But then again, here we do have snow. (and ice. Lots of it).

Maybe normal tyres are adequate for an occational snowfall that then melts away again.
But if you have months of snow and ice, and intend to maintain the same speed on the road as during the summer, then I seriously doubt normal tyres will do the job.

Some years back I had an Englishman visiting me in the winther. It was snowing seriously, I was keeping 100 kms/h and thought nothing of it. He was just dead silent. As if he couldn't believe it. I asked what it was.

He said: If this weather was in the UK, the traffic would stand completely still.

So maybe we are looking at this tyre-question from different perspectives.

Hi VIKING,

that's very interesting and funny topic. I feel responsable I started it.!

I'm leaving on the Meditteranian sea (please don't joke about it if I am talking about snow driving!).
My region is closed between mountains and sea and Alps are nearby. So, even if in winter I am lucky to have Spring weather feelings, as soon as I cross the mountains Winter is predominant.
Driving north towards the Alps snow is from wet and slippery to dry and powder as in your area.
Making it short I always used to have four winter wheels equipped with winter lamellar tyres on my cars.
In this area we have to face with slopes which degree is higher than in other countries and that the reason we are obliged to carry snow chains, as well as mentioned earlier.

Thanks in any case for your appreciated advise.

16th Oct 2007 10:06 pm

rmbillington

Member Since: 28 Aug 2006
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 511

2007 Freelander 2 TD4 XS Manual Stornoway Grey

VIKING wrote:
npinksi wrote:
have spoken to a few companies on snowchains and they all say 2 chain is fine for 4x4's

Then they dont know what they are talking about. If you put chains on the front wheels only, they would have a bigger rolling distance than the back-wheel, unsyncronizing them, then destroying them.

This would be true for a 4x4 with a centre diff-lock, and having it locked. For a car/4x4 with a centre differential fitted (certainly all permemnat 4x4s have one) the rolling distance difference front to back wouldn't matter.

This is like the difference between inside and outside wheels when cornering, it's the differential that stops either one wheel spinning, as they try to do the same speed, or the drive shafts exploding. The same thing happens with front to rear all the time (think a lorry going round a corner and the back wheels taking a tighter line, therfore shorter, to the front, just more obvious than a car), and the diff can deal with it

With regards to the difference in rolling distance with snow chains, to not, isn't this the same as running with slightly lower PSI in the back to the front?

Hope this makes sense

Rich

16th Oct 2007 10:23 pm

npinks

Member Since: 28 Jun 2007
Location: Ls25
Posts: 20090

After looking in to the snowchains in the manual, there is two correct versions whether to have chains on the front and rear wheels

Quote:

Land Rover approved traction devices may be
used to improve traction on a hard road surface
in heavy snow conditions. They should not be
used in off-road conditions.

If it becomes necessary to fit traction devices,
the following points must be observed:-

• Snow chains can only be fitted on the front
and rear wheels of vehicles fitted with 16
inch diameter wheels.

• Single sided Spike-spyder traction devices
can only be fitted to the front wheels of
vehicles fitted with 17 or 18 inch diameter
wheels.

Not to cause any further debate, but I presume LR the people who make the car would have looked into the snowchains debate.

If i get a pair, I'll get snowsocks as they would not increase the tyre size by very much and they are £200 cheaper

16th Oct 2007 10:26 pm

npinks

Member Since: 28 Jun 2007
Location: Ls25
Posts: 20090

rmbillington wrote:

With regards to the difference in rolling distance with snow chains, to not, isn't this the same as running with slightly lower PSI in the back to the front?

Hope this makes sense

Rich

I presume its the same as having a set of tyres with less tread on the front than the rear aswell, front a rear tyres wear a different rates, so the diff must be able to cope

16th Oct 2007 10:29 pm

VIKING

Member Since: 22 Sep 2007
Location: Stavern, NORWAY
Posts: 389

Re: Driving on snow

Hi Attox.

I have been several times to the Mediterrainian in the summer, and the Alps in the winther.
Driving conditions in the Alps in the winther was exactly the same as in Norway, so yes you definitely need a proper set of winther tyres. -And if the law require you to have chains, well you have to obide.

Snow hasn't come here yet, but I expect it will come in a month or so. In the mountains it is probably just another week or so.

This week-end I am borrowing a FL 2 to take up to my cabin in the mountains. I have asked them to put winther tyres on, even if there is still no snow there. But it can come quickly.

I almost cant wait to get my own FL 2 delivered in December. Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells..... 2008 Freelander 2 HSE TD4 Automatic, Caspian Blue, Alpaca, Moon roof, Exclusive pack.

16th Oct 2007 10:31 pm

NightFox

Member Since: 11 May 2007
Location: North Shropshire
Posts: 353

rmbillington wrote:
With regards to the difference in rolling distance with snow chains, to not, isn't this the same as running with slightly lower PSI in the back to the front?

I can't get this straight in my head (it's been a long day!), but isn't the circumference of a tyre practically the same irrespective of whether it's inflated or deflated?

16th Oct 2007 10:32 pm

rmbillington

Member Since: 28 Aug 2006
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 511

[quote="NightFox]CAUTION
The vehicle should only be towed with four wheels on the ground. Towing with two wheels on the ground will result in serious damage to the transmission.

I guess this is in effect the same issue.[/quote]

This will be due to the strain put on the centre diff/viscous coupling (or whatever actually is in the FL2). The diff is designed to run a small speeds differently for short times. When towing on 2 wheels, it would be being spun at anything upto 60mph ish, causing a lot of heat, and strain on the diff.

This would be the same on a front wheel drive car, it won't have been designed to allow one front wheel to spin at 60mph, and the other remain stationary, you would imagine it would cause long term damage.

16th Oct 2007 10:33 pm

rmbillington

Member Since: 28 Aug 2006
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 511

NightFox wrote:
rmbillington wrote:
With regards to the difference in rolling distance with snow chains, to not, isn't this the same as running with slightly lower PSI in the back to the front?

I can't get this straight in my head (it's been a long day!), but isn't the circumference of a tyre practically the same irrespective of whether it's inflated or deflated?

You are probably right, but I was trying to think of when it would be different (when a 4x4 instructor described it to me). The differnece in tread is a better example (read better as "the correct").

Rich

16th Oct 2007 10:35 pm

NightFox

Member Since: 11 May 2007
Location: North Shropshire
Posts: 353

rmbillington wrote:
This will be due to the strain put on the centre diff/viscous coupling (or whatever actually is in the FL2). The diff is designed to run a small speeds differently for short times. When towing on 2 wheels, it would be being spun at anything upto 60mph ish, causing a lot of heat, and strain on the diff.

This would be the same on a front wheel drive car, it won't have been designed to allow one front wheel to spin at 60mph, and the other remain stationary, you would imagine it would cause long term damage.

Ah, I see - that would make sense.

16th Oct 2007 10:36 pm

attox

Member Since: 24 Jul 2007
Location: Genova
Posts: 93

npinks wrote:
After looking in to the snowchains in the manual, there is two correct versions whether to have chains on the front and rear wheels

Quote:

Land Rover approved traction devices may be
used to improve traction on a hard road surface
in heavy snow conditions. They should not be
used in off-road conditions.

If it becomes necessary to fit traction devices,
the following points must be observed:-

• Snow chains can only be fitted on the front
and rear wheels of vehicles fitted with 16
inch diameter wheels.

• Single sided Spike-spyder traction devices
can only be fitted to the front wheels of
vehicles fitted with 17 or 18 inch diameter
wheels.

Not to cause any further debate, but I presume LR the people who make the car would have looked into the snowchains debate.

If i get a pair, I'll get snowsocks as they would not increase the tyre size by very much and they are £200 cheaper

I think the 16 inch diameter wheels should have the enough clearance to avoid damage to sensors and other stuff.
The 17 or 18 inches need the single sided Spike-spyder for the redced clearance as said before.

16th Oct 2007 10:38 pm

npinks

Member Since: 28 Jun 2007
Location: Ls25
Posts: 20090

Quote:

I think the 16 inch diameter wheels should have the enough clearance to avoid damage to sensors and other stuff.
The 17 or 18 inches need the single sided Spike-spyder for the redced clearance as said before.

But the Spike Spyder look to increase the circumference of the tyre more than a set of snowchains, (if you could get a set of chains that fit the FL2)

so why is LR saying it is okay to put them just on the front, if this will cause so much damage by not having them on all four a previously stated so they rotate at the same speed

16th Oct 2007 10:54 pm

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