Following on from two earlier threads: http://www.freel2.com/forum/post27588.html#27588 and http://www.freel2.com/forum/topic2498.html

Due to a forthcoming first service, I have been trying to follow up recommendations that Yamaha-Fan has earlier posted on Freel2 concerning the correct motor oil specification we should be using for FL2 TD4 with DPF.

My service station, which is also where the FL2 was purchased, recommend using Castrol SLX Professional Longtec for Volvo 0W-30 (specification ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5) which also conforms to Land Rover recommendations. This of course worried me as this specification does not conform to the ACEA specification C2 or C3 that Y-F has insisted we use for DPF engines

I have also discussed in detail the information Y-F has posted on Freel2 also with Castrol Norway and although they of course do have motor oil types that are especially produced for diesel engines with DPF and carry a ACEA specification C2 or C3 they could not recommend using anything other than what Land Rover specify

Therefore (after some time consuming correspondence and telephoning) I have been I touch with Land Rover Norway and they also inform me that they have not heard of any new EU regulations about using motor oil with ACEA specification C2 or C3 for DPF engines and have not been informed by Land Rover UK that there is any other recommendation other than SAE 5W-30 oils conforming to Ford WSS-M2C13B specification ACEA A1 or B1

I do not doubt that what Y-F has informed us about is correct - that FL2 with DPF requires motor oil with ACEA specification C2 or C3 - but it would seem that here at least in Norway, using any oil other than what Land Rover specify may be an impeachment of guarantee and therefore would be at your own risk if you did not follow the LR recommendations

If you own a FL2 with DPF (Diesel Particle Filter) regardless of where you live, I would suggest that you seriously consider the implications by using any other oil specification than that which is specified in the owners handbook OR/AND get in contact yourself with Land Rover (not a service station) and ask their advice before you change oil  2007 Freelander 2 HSE TD4 Manual with Premium Pack & Moonroof.
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It's not a problem at all (at least here in Denmark) to use a different oil compared to the Dealer recommended.

Before my 1st service I contacted the Dealer (by email, for the record), and owing to them using a basic Castrol oil - we agreed I could provide my own (Shell Ultra Helix).

There was no problem or talk about warranty issues, far from it - they admitted they had actually learnt something.

You cannot argue against the facts and logic from YF's analysis.

I am not arguing against the facts and logic from Y-F's analysis - In fact I totally understand Y-F's reasoning and if I could I would inform my service station to use oil that is suited for engines with DFP. What I am saying is, that what Y-F has told us is only his point of view of the situation in Germany (although he also mentions the EU as well) - What he needs to do is to give us and Land Rover real proof that his statements are correct . Land Rover would then no doubt inform ALL distributors and service stations the world over, that a different oil specification MUST be used in FL2's with DPF. That has clearly NOT happened .

It occurred to me that the described problems in Germany may not apply to the UK or Norway for that matter - What if the reason German Freelanders have the described problems is because they are used mainly on short trips in towns - and - What if the instructions in the handbook for cleaning the DPF is not followed by German drivers for some reason Then they would have problems with the DPF clogging up. At least here in Norway, most of our driving is not in large towns and cities and the chance of a clogged DPF would be pretty remote.

It would be VERY interesting if Y-F could translate the German publication concerning this important development and post a copy on Freel2 and at the same time get it posted to Land Rover in the UK to hear what they really mean about it

To follow ones feelings because of others hear say is pretty stupid if you ask me - I for one would rather listen to what Land Rover has to say rather what we hear third hand.  2007 Freelander 2 HSE TD4 Manual with Premium Pack & Moonroof.
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i agree with Andy

Although YF's details are all correct, if LR don't allow the use of if and won't do a warranty claim even though your protesting "Yamaha Fan told me it was correct and better for the car "

Go with what LR say and its up to them to rectify any damage it does whilst in warranty, after warranty put what ever you like in as it will be you paying for it  Former Mod/Member, with the most post & Chicken George Arch nemesis

Hi guys, I can fully understand your doubts and concerns, but please do not overestimate the possibility of Landrover refusing warranty obligations for reason of motor oil not meeting the WSS...913B spec.
This fear -although well understood- is in practical terms so minor, as Landrover or its approved workshop will have to prove that the engine failure is caused by the non-spec motor oil. If you should ever have a motor break down and Landrover should argue that this is due to the wrong motor oil, they must prove their claim.
To make this prove acceptable to any court, it is general practice to arrange a motor oil analysis by a court-approved laboratory (relatively cheap). For this purpose the motor oil specification of the LR-approved motor oil is compared with the oil spec of the motor oil you have used in your engine. If the motor oil you have used conforms to the European ACEA specification, Landrover will have a very tough time to win the case.
In addition, the Ford norm WSS...913 B has been established in 1998. At that time, no engines with DPF existed!
Example:
The techn. specs of a motor oil (Mobil 1 Fuel Ecconomy 0W30) ACEA A1/B1 and according to Ford norm WSS...913 B is:
Viscosity ASTM D 445: mm2/s 40° C - 54,2 - 100°C 10,2
Sulphate-Ash wt%, ASTM D 874: - 1,3%
Phosphoring: - 0,1
Burning point °C, ASTM D 92: - 228 °C (the higher the better)
Total Base Number (TBN) - 11,4 (the higher, the better)
HTHS stability mPas at 150°C, ASTM D 4683 3,0 (the higher the better)

The techn. specs of a motor oil as per ACEA C2/C3 (Mobil 1 ESP 5W30) is (same criteria as above):
Viscosity : 72,8 and 12,1
Sulphate Ash : 0,6%
Phosphoring: 0
Burning point: 254°C
Total Base Number: 12,9
HTHS stability: 3,58

The technical data I have copied from the exxon/mobil website for Mobil1 oils.

If you compare the technical data of both motor oils, you will clearly see that the ACEA C2 and C3 oils are much better than the low spec A1 and B1 oils. It will be impossible to prove any motor failure to the use of the the better oil. So please relax and do not overestimate the "safeguarding" behaviour of LR and/or their workshops, which are of no use if it should ever come to discussions of wrong or right motor oils.

YF

YF, I hear, understand and accept what you are telling us . The point I was trying to make on my original posting on this thread was that Land Rover has not instructed its service stations to use oil with ACEA C2/C3 specification and as long as this is the situation we only have your recommendations that this oil spec. should be used instead of what LR is specifying. Not even Castrol will recommend any other oil spec. other than LR's recommendations

YF, You have explained in detail why and what oil spec. we should use and that Land Rover in Germany has instructed its service stations to use a different spec. to the rest of the world. What we now need is a translation from the German documents you originally referred to, exactly what the new EEC/EU regulations say and what Land Rover has informed its service stations/distributors. Also a copy of the original German documents or a link to these, which is equally important. In that way we can then present this original information along with our own arguments to our own countries Land Rover representatives as evidence that there is a change in the air. Failing this, our countries LR representatives will not take our questions and enquiries seriously as is the case here in Norway.

Of course what each individual may choose to put in his beloved FL2 is up to you, but I and probably many others would rather follow Land Rovers recommendations regardless of hear say .

The service station I use is a Land Rover, Volvo, Ford and Renault distributor. I was told here that all Land Rovers and at least Volvo's get the same oil regardless if the motor has DPF or not, which is as earlier mentioned is Castrol SLX Professional Longtec for Volvo 0W-30 (specification ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5). From this it seems that the situation is the same for Volvo diesel vehicles with DPF as for Land Rovers, so it is clear to me that we need the German evidence to wake the out of our sleepy importers/distributors as soon as possible .

Sorry again for the epilogue, but this is an important matter that needs to be sorted out and quickly too . 2007 Freelander 2 HSE TD4 Manual with Premium Pack & Moonroof.
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........."but it would seem that here at least in Norway, using any oil other than what Land Rover specify may be an impeachment of guarantee and therefore would be at your own risk if you did not follow the LR recommendations"..........

Andy - actually, you do not have any direct evidence that LR Norway considers higher spec oil, to be a Warranty breach - agree ?

Castrol's opinion is irrelevent + biased, and the Nor Dealer just says their service oil is OK.

That is not support for the impression you are giving, which is a Warranty breach.

(Here in Denmark, I have written approval to use higher spec oil - this from the main Danish Dealer).

It's not up to YF to do anything - it's up to you as the owner.

If you intend to keep your FL2 beyond the warranty period (like me) - then use the best quality oil you can. As NPinks says - after the warranty period expires - it's your cost. Meaning if you suffer engine efficiency problems (fuel / power issues) or DPF issues - then you can't return to the Dealer and try to blame them for using low spec oils during 1st 3 years.

If you intend to change your FL2 directly after the warranty period (I expect fewer of us can do this now, due to the economy) - then go for the cheapest, short-term solution - low spec, low cost LR service oils.

Jimmy - I try to answer your various questions

You wrote
Andy - actually, you do not have any direct evidence that LR Norway considers higher spec oil, to be a Warranty breach - agree ?
Agree - of course I do not have any direct evidence - I am just a FL2 owner that is trying to find out if it is REALLY necessary to use a different specification oil than what Land Rover says we should use.

Castrol's opinion is irrelevant + biased, and the Nor Dealer just says their service oil is OK.
That is not support for the impression you are giving, which is a Warranty breach.
(Here in Denmark, I have written approval to use higher spec oil - this from the main Danish Dealer).

That is not the case at all - The Nor-Dealer and Castrol are only recommending an oil specification that LAND ROVER says we should use. I did not mean to state that it WOULD BE a warranty breach, sorry if it came over that way. I was mealy asking or hinting that it MAY be the case.
You quote higher spec. and lower spec. oil several times, but you are completely missing the point here - it has nothing to do with quality of the oil grade, you cant get much better quality oil than has been offered by my LR service station - It has to do with a DIFFERENT specification oil (including C2 or C3 which according to Castrol at least is especially developed for vehicles with DPF)

It's not up to YF to do anything - it's up to you as the owner.

If you read my last post you will see that I am not demanding YF to do anything , but asking for his help.

If you intend to keep your FL2 beyond the warranty period (like me) - then use the best quality oil you can. As NPinks says - after the warranty period expires - it's your cost. Meaning if you suffer engine efficiency problems (fuel / power issues) or DPF issues - then you can't return to the Dealer and try to blame them for using low spec oils during 1st 3 years.
If you intend to change your FL2 directly after the warranty period (I expect fewer of us can do this now, due to the economy) - then go for the cheapest, short-term solution - low spec, low cost LR service oils.

I am concerned that I use the CORRECT grade oil (nothing to do with best or worst) and that it complies with what Land Rover specify - if LR are sleeping on information they need a kick in the ass to update the spec. they advise us to use. I want to keep my FL2 for many years and I want it to last - how do you know that by not following LR's recommendations your FL2 will not have problems later  2007 Freelander 2 HSE TD4 Manual with Premium Pack & Moonroof.
Stornoway Grey with Ebony Black Pleather, Clear Indicators, Body Side Mouldings etc.

Hi Andy, I hear what you have said, although I do not understand your concern.
Landrover due to whatever reason recommends a certain oil standard (which means oil quality!!!) and advises its dealers and workshops to follow this defined standard. Most workshops will follow this LR-oil recommendation for the following reasons:
a) their oil purchases are based on long term contracts
b) purchasing and storing an additional oil quality will increase administration and liquidity
c) warranty settlements with Landrover may result in addl. work and delay in payment by LR
So it becomes quite clear why some workshops do not apply their (better) knowledge and hide behind the LR-regulations.
But the prime question I try to make you all understand is if what are the risks and how probable are these risks if you use a better motor oil as recommended by Landrover vide their dealership.
Besides the common sense court decision in Germany against Landrover Germany you should also consider the latest legislation of the European Council which clearly and very detailed puts the demand of every European car manufacturer aside to service its cars in a car manufacturer approved workshop. The European Council has ruled that for reasons of free competition any workshop may service your car as long as such service is carried out according to the manufacturers service plan.
The same reasoning applies to the motor oil, as the car owner has to depend on the motor oil his service station has decided to keep in stock. This behaviour of workshops is contraproductive to free competition and gives the car owner no choice to get a quality oil at a competitive price. This is the reason why the EC has allowed the car owners to bring their own motor oil and the workshops are obliged to use this oil, as long as this oil meets the quality as demanded by the car manufacturer. The use of any motor oil of BETTER quality as demanded by the car manufacturer is deemed to meet the criteria as laid down by the EC.
To avoid arguments of what motor oil is better than the other, the European Car Manufacturer Association have created a motor oil classification called "ACEA" (French abbreviation) which classifies motor oils for its purpose:
ACEA A 1 to A 5 for petrol engines
ACEA B1 to B5 for diesel engines
ACEA C1 to C3 for diesel engines with diesel particulate filter (DPF)
ACEA D for trucks and busses
The higher the ACEA number the better is the quality of the oil.
For reasons only Landrover knows they have chosen to ignore the ACEA classification, and to create their own norms (driven by Ford USA), although lately it becomes evident that also Landrover acknowledges the existence, the importance and the reliability of the ACEA norm, particularely as the European courts acknowledge and rely on the ACEA norms, as any motor oil which conforms to such ACEA norm will have the specification and quality as classified.
So it is your own and very personal decision if you follow outdated and internationally not accepted oil norms as created by any car manufacturer (here: Landrover/Ford) OR if you trust the approved and accepted ACEA oil classification.

YF

Hi Yamaha-fan, Many thanks again for your explanations including what the different specification abbreviations stand for i.e. A5, B5, C3 etc. As I earlier mentioned my dealer/service centre who is also a distributor for Volvo uses one oil type for all his servicing (Castrol SLX Professional Longtec for Volvo 0W-30 (specification ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5) which would certainly make sense with your comments a. and b. concerning their oil stocking. It would seem to me that this oil is a very high grade suitable for all petrol and diesel motors except those fitted with DPF .

Unfortunately for me my FL2 gets its first service today and it will get the above mentioned oil dumped in its sump, so it is too late to do anything about it this time . However I intend to pursue this matter further with Land Rover UK, until I get a positive answer from them directly that the specific oil type for motors with DPF should use oil that complies with C2 to C3 specification . If and when I get an answer from Land Rover UK, I will send a copy on Freel2. If the answer is a positive for C2-C3 spec. oils, I will also stick a copy up the ass of the boss of my service station .

As I have earlier mentioned, as you have YF, it is up to each individual FL2 owner to choose between accepting the oil the dealer supplies or specify this yourself, but I guess by now most of us understand that Land Rover is lagging behind the times concerning this DPF-thing, which is a pity and bad news for them . 2007 Freelander 2 HSE TD4 Manual with Premium Pack & Moonroof.
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Is it me ro does anyone else have a head ache ? 

Christian - if you don't like this thread, you don't have to read it - I suggest you go and play with your Dinky toys instead  2007 Freelander 2 HSE TD4 Manual with Premium Pack & Moonroof.
Stornoway Grey with Ebony Black Pleather, Clear Indicators, Body Side Mouldings etc.

I like this tread

An Exceedingly Piquant Thread

athelstan wrote:

An Exceedingly Piquant Thread

Oh thought this one was burried a long time ago
Still, its now more interesting for many to flash their watches or discuss polished exhaust trims  2007 Freelander 2 HSE TD4 Manual with Premium Pack & Moonroof.
Stornoway Grey with Ebony Black Pleather, Clear Indicators, Body Side Mouldings etc.