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Karoo



Member Since: 27 Oct 2022
Location: Hull
Posts: 3

United Kingdom 
Non starter after cylinder head removal

Hi Guys,

Hope someone technical can help.?

Freelander 2, Diesel: 2.2 Duratorq. The cam belt broke, since this engine is an interferance engine I was expecting to have bent valves. Removed cylinder head and all valves were good as they operate perpendicular to the pistons and not angled as some engines, but ALL the finger rockers were broken.
A light pitting on valves so gave them a light grind. Refitted head with new finger rockers, hydraulic tappets and new cambelt kit.
Bleed fuel system but it will not start. My question is about engine timing, As the cambelt was broken I had no reference to original pin setting. I put timing pins in the crankshaft and camshaft but the crankshafts can be timed in 2 positions as its a 2:1 turning ratio crankshaft to camshaft. Does the sensor still inject on No 1 cylinder if it is 1 turn out to the camshaft sensor (no 1 cylinder being flywheel end?) how do I check injection is correct ie No1 or No 4?

Any advice appreciated
Thanks
Dave

Update

I have removed cam belt and turned crankshaft 1 turn so it is retimed to camshaft but still no start, I have read fault codes and reset and after further tries to start no new fault codes have appeared so I am baffled.

Post #426290 28th Oct 2022 7:34 am
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tomas918



Member Since: 17 Nov 2022
Location: madrid
Posts: 1

Spain 2011 Freelander 2 TD4 S Manual Izmir Blue

Post #427160 23rd Nov 2022 7:19 pm
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Nodge68



Member Since: 15 Jul 2020
Location: Newquay
Posts: 902

United Kingdom 2009 Freelander 2 TD4 SE Manual Rimini Red
Re: Non starter after cylinder head removal

Karoo wrote:
Hi Guys,

Hope someone technical can help.?

Freelander 2, Diesel: 2.2 Duratorq. The cam belt broke, since this engine is an interferance engine I was expecting to have bent valves. Removed cylinder head and all valves were good as they operate perpendicular to the pistons and not angled as some engines, but ALL the finger rockers were broken.
A light pitting on valves so gave them a light grind. Refitted head with new finger rockers, hydraulic tappets and new cambelt kit.
Bleed fuel system but it will not start. My question is about engine timing, As the cambelt was broken I had no reference to original pin setting. I put timing pins in the crankshaft and camshaft but the crankshafts can be timed in 2 positions as its a 2:1 turning ratio crankshaft to camshaft. Does the sensor still inject on No 1 cylinder if it is 1 turn out to the camshaft sensor (no 1 cylinder being flywheel end?) how do I check injection is correct ie No1 or No 4?

Any advice appreciated
Thanks
Dave

Update

I have removed cam belt and turned crankshaft 1 turn so it is retimed to camshaft but still no start, I have read fault codes and reset and after further tries to start no new fault codes have appeared so I am baffled.


These timing belts almost never break. They have a 150k service interval.

The cam timing pin can only be fitted in 1 location, which is the cutout near the hub, not the elongated slot.

Click image to enlarge


Are you 100% sure all the valves are OK? The stems are like soft cheese, and bend easily.
Click image to enlarge
 2009 Rimini Red SE, its getting there.

Post #427161 23rd Nov 2022 8:05 pm
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tenet



Member Since: 23 Jul 2009
Location: cotswolds
Posts: 1012

United Kingdom 2015 Freelander 2 SD4 SE Auto Orkney Grey

Nodge said They have a 150k service interval.

I though change was at year 7 or 105,000 miles whichever comes earlier? MY 09 GS manual in Lago Grey, Wood Co arm rest and side bumper strips - now sold.

MY 15 SD4 SE Auto Orkney Grey with colour coded Bumper Door Mouldings

Post #427173 24th Nov 2022 11:02 am
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jules



Member Since: 13 Dec 2007
Location: The Wilds of Warwickshire
Posts: 3524

United Kingdom 2014 Freelander 2 SD4 SE Auto Firenze Red

So the question remains how do you set the crank rotation in sync with camshaft as there are two TDC positions for the crank; one at the end of compression when the injections are activated and the other at the end of exhaust stroke.

Its easy if you are just replacing the belt but if the crank has spun around after the belt broke you then dont know where you are with the crank in relation to the cam timing.

How do the electronics know which TDC to activate the injections, is it from a camshaft sensor ?

On an old petrol engine with a distributor you could see when the rota arm was on a contact which indicated ignition TDC.

Im going to look in the JLR manual Jules


Last edited by jules on 24th Nov 2022 11:51 am. Edited 1 time in total

Post #427177 24th Nov 2022 11:42 am
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jules



Member Since: 13 Dec 2007
Location: The Wilds of Warwickshire
Posts: 3524

United Kingdom 2014 Freelander 2 SD4 SE Auto Firenze Red

Yes there is a camshaft position sensor (CMP - page 1242 in the manual). So I dont think it matters which TDC is set for the crank. Jules

Post #427178 24th Nov 2022 11:50 am
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BossBob



Member Since: 30 Sep 2010
Location: Bristol
Posts: 950

England 2007 Freelander 2 TD4 GS Manual Baltic Blue

jules wrote:
So the question remains how do you set the crank rotation in sync with camshaft as there are two TDC positions for the crank; one at the end of compression when the injections are activated and the other at the end of exhaust stroke.

Its easy if you are just replacing the belt but if the crank has spun around after the belt broke you then dont know where you are with the crank in relation to the cam timing.

How do the electronics know which TDC to activate the injections, is it from a camshaft sensor ?

On an old petrol engine with a distributor you could see when the rota arm was on a contact which indicated ignition TDC.

Im going to look in the JLR manual

And on most of the 4 stroke motorcycles I’ve worked on (except the Ducati) the spark plug fired every revolution as the points were on the end of the crankshaft.

Post #427197 24th Nov 2022 3:49 pm
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Nodge68



Member Since: 15 Jul 2020
Location: Newquay
Posts: 902

United Kingdom 2009 Freelander 2 TD4 SE Manual Rimini Red

tenet wrote:
Nodge said They have a 150k service interval.

I though change was at year 7 or 105,000 miles whichever comes earlier?


Early models were 150k or 10 years, but this was reduced at some point in the production run, maybe it was after the SD4 arrived?
The belt is good for 150k though, and even at that distance, they don't look too bad. 2009 Rimini Red SE, its getting there.

Post #427202 24th Nov 2022 4:31 pm
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I Like Chips



Member Since: 25 Jun 2017
Location: Ascott Under Wychwood
Posts: 975

United Kingdom 2011 Freelander 2 SD4 HSE Auto Indus Silver

The earliest I have read about a belt failing is 185,000 miles unless others know better.

I am no way advocating a belt change at that sort of mileage, I change mine and the auxiliary belt with all the kit every 60K

Post #427214 24th Nov 2022 7:07 pm
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BossBob



Member Since: 30 Sep 2010
Location: Bristol
Posts: 950

England 2007 Freelander 2 TD4 GS Manual Baltic Blue

Compared to the inconvenience and cost of a cambelt breaking I think I’d rather go with the recommended change intervals!

Post #427217 24th Nov 2022 9:44 pm
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Nodge68



Member Since: 15 Jul 2020
Location: Newquay
Posts: 902

United Kingdom 2009 Freelander 2 TD4 SE Manual Rimini Red

jules wrote:
So the question remains how do you set the crank rotation in sync with camshaft as there are two TDC positions for the crank; one at the end of compression when the injections are activated and the other at the end of exhaust stroke.

Its easy if you are just replacing the belt but if the crank has spun around after the belt broke you then dont know where you are with the crank in relation to the cam timing.

Im going to look in the JLR manual

Same way as when you remove the cams.

The crank is locked in the timing position with a pin.
The cam is also locked in the timing position with another pin.
Both are then in synchronisation, so the belt can be fitted. 2009 Rimini Red SE, its getting there.

Post #427225 25th Nov 2022 12:27 am
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jules



Member Since: 13 Dec 2007
Location: The Wilds of Warwickshire
Posts: 3524

United Kingdom 2014 Freelander 2 SD4 SE Auto Firenze Red

@ Nodge

Yes its easy if you lock everything up before but you remove the belt.

But what happens if you then move the crank another complete rotation (as might happen if cam/crank sync is lost when a belt breaks) and you lock the crank 360 degrees from where it would have been originally ?

I dont think it matters as the CKP sensor will be in the same position at both compression TDC and exhaust TDC. It must be the CMP which determines which is the ignition stroke.

Am I correct ? Im just trying think this through. Jules

Post #427232 25th Nov 2022 9:16 am
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Luke G



Member Since: 26 Jan 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 81

2010 Freelander 2 TD4 HSE Auto Narvik Black

I might be getting ahead of where you are currently at so apologies if this advice is wrong. However, If the motor is currently back together and you have turned it over by hand with a socket on the crankshaft pulley bolt to check that valves aren’t hitting pistons, you could then try cranking it over with the starter while someone sprays ”aerostart” into the inlet manifold. If it fires over for a few moments you will know your timing is right. I did this after having the head off mine but then couldn’t get it to run. In my instance the timing was fine but I just hadn’t bled the fuel system properly (why oh why didn’t they put a priming bulb on the fuel line like most other cars???).

Post #427251 25th Nov 2022 8:18 pm
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Nodge68



Member Since: 15 Jul 2020
Location: Newquay
Posts: 902

United Kingdom 2009 Freelander 2 TD4 SE Manual Rimini Red

jules wrote:
@ Nodge

Yes its easy if you lock everything up before but you remove the belt.

But what happens if you then move the crank another complete rotation (as might happen if cam/crank sync is lost when a belt breaks) and you lock the crank 360 degrees from where it would have been originally ?

I dont think it matters as the CKP sensor will be in the same position at both compression TDC and exhaust TDC. It must be the CMP which determines which is the ignition stroke.

Am I correct ? Im just trying think this through.


The crank has only one locking pin hole in the flywheel, so can only be locked in the correct position. One rotation of the flywheel is one rotation of the whole crank, so the pistons will always be in the correct place when locked.

The cams rotate at ½ crank speed, but this reduction is done on the pulleys, the crank pulley having exactly ½ the number of teeth as the cam pulley.

So locking the cam with the pin also puts the cam in correct timing with the crankshaft.

Now if the crankshaft was turned exactly one turn after cam timing was done, the cam pulleys would be 180° out, but the cam lock pin can't be inserted in this position, meaning that as long as both crank and cam are locked, they will be synchronised to each other. 2009 Rimini Red SE, its getting there.

Post #427280 26th Nov 2022 3:51 pm
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Karoo



Member Since: 27 Oct 2022
Location: Hull
Posts: 3

United Kingdom 

Thanks all for your contributions. It was not my car so I had no history. I bought the car like this in view of fixing for myself. I have purchased a diesel compression tester and done a compression test and all cylinders are quite low hence no heat for combustion. I the stripped engine and big end bearings are in very good condition but piston rings are worn hence blowby.
Does anyone have or know wear specifications for bore and pistons, ring clearances, torques etc?

Thanks again Guys!

Regards Dave

Post #427306 27th Nov 2022 12:36 pm
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