I am growing concerned that if I buy a modern (computer rich) car that it may not be as road worthy as I think as it may have software errors that effect it's safety.

These may be that updates are missed, or worse still, that illegal changes have been made to the makers specification.

Braking, steering, suspension, can, and in many cases are, controlled by both the driver and various sensors around the car.

The software state of a modern car is as equally important as say the wear of some bearing, or the amount of tread on a tyre,
and dare I say more important than a small chip in the windscreen.

I think that the MOT test is increasingly becoming a 'rubber stamping' activity and needs to be brought up to date FL2 XS SD4 Auto 2010 2012-2017 (21k - 91k miles) (MY2011)
FL2 Metropolis SD4 Auto 2014 2017- (16k - 76k+ miles) (MY2015)

The problem there is the cost of suitable diagnostics equipment to check the software for every vehicle on the road. IMO its just not feasible to do that other than basic code reading for many garages. Also whats to stop an owner disabling or clearing errors just before the car goes on the testers ramp?

I agree the test needs a massive overhaul, as many garages will mark down an advisory for engine covers or under trays for example, to cover their own backs. Maybe they should be allowed to remove the covers to give a more thorough examination. TBH I don't have the answers, its just way too complex an area these days with our computers on wheels.

as an example, I took my D4 to have a new windscreen fitted on Saturday, nothing fancy apart from being heated and the sensors really. Took about an hour to do including them checking the sensors still worked etc.

at the same time was a guy with 68 plate Volvo XC60 with heads up display and active driving sensors on the screen as well as heated etc etc...… the estimate there was over 2 hours to fix as they would need recalibrate the driving sensors, check the HUD etc etc...…. just way to complicated

Add to that the fact that the glass on that Volvo is possibly 'specialised'. Guy at work has cracked the screen on his BMW 460 with heads up display and been told a special glass is needed and it'll cost him £750+ Seems he didn't have screen cover on his insurance

I can see this coming with electric cars too. Just because the don't have ICEs doesn't mean that the battery and motor control software plus regenerative braking systems are going to be any less complex (probably more so). I keep reading articles in the press by non technical journalist idiots who say that an electric car has only 30 moving parts compared with 3,000 in an ICE vehicle and so will be ultra reliable. They don't realise that they will still have suspension, calipers, pads, shockers, CV joints, ABS, DSC and door locks etc etc. As the cars get more autonomous we will probably get to the situation where you have to go to a main dealer or it will invalidate your (and the manufacturers insurance if it's driverless) in the same way that you are supposed to get a qualified electrician to work on new bathroom and kitchens installation now. 3 x FL1 2 manual + 1 auto
5 x FL2 4 manual + 1 auto
Now Discovery Sport P250 MHEV SE

 Procrastination, mankind's greatest labour saving device!

Acoustic insulation ARB TPMS 3xARB air compressors After cooler Air tank On-board OCD pressure air/water cleaning Additional 50L fuel Carpet in doors ABE 2x1kg Waeco 28L modified fridge Battery 4x26ah Solar 120w Victron MPPT 100/20 DC-DC 18amps 175amp jumper plug Awning 6x255/60R18

The MOT already has some software checks related to safety.

Illuminated dash warning lights are a fail, such as ABS, Engine(EML), Stability Control and TPMS.

If these warning lights are on then it proves the software is working, as it is detecting safety related faults.

I don't see any point in checking module software versions, and if there was an update that is safety related
you can easily check on the Government MOT history site which shows if you have outstanding recalls.

I was thinking more along the lines of a 'virus checking' type of software to root out any unauthorised changes, missing updates, missing software, and a check that checksums are still valid.

Yes, it is difficult to oversee, and you are right that the checker has to be reliable, as it is all to easy to 'adjust' the checking program get the results you want.

Perhaps the way forward is for the manufacturer to be given the job of downloading the information contained in the car's control electronics after any injury causing incident, and taking the person responsible for any defects to task. -- As they do for aircraft.

Any investigation must be carried out by controlled and authorised external software, as it is relatively easy to turn off the odd warning light.

Having been driving (next year hopefully) for 60 years, I have seen cars and their safety come on in leaps and bounds, and I am sure that the MOT led to much safer cars. Now is the time for a rethink of maintenance, MOTs, etc to include ALL the car and its control systems. FL2 XS SD4 Auto 2010 2012-2017 (21k - 91k miles) (MY2011)
FL2 Metropolis SD4 Auto 2014 2017- (16k - 76k+ miles) (MY2015)

How about this one - and it's just me rambling.

You have an accident, your insurer contacts the manufacturer and asks have all the software patches been applied to your car. Your car was last serviced by an independent who hasn't the recourses to download software patches, so in the manufacturers eyes you have missed "critical" software. No-one at this point has interrogated your car, they don't have to as the manufacturer is the only approved source of software for your vehicle.

Insurer says sorry your not insured as your car was being used in an unsafe state, you get a bill for your car, and the other vehicle and you are looking at 10 points for no insurance.

It's up to you to prove what software is missing, and if it is critical to the accident, oh and the only source of that information is the dealer who you chose not to use. Tangiers Orange - gone, missing her
Replaced by Ewok what a mistake - now a happy Disco Sport owner

Find a new independent. One who cannot perform software updates must be VERY limited in what they can do

I was thinking about me - I always am apparently

As soon as mine is out of warranty it will never see another garage, independent or otherwise.
Don't get me wrong Land Ranger Services are just down the road, fine bunch of lads who do seem conscientious, but I actually like messing about with spanners. It's nice now that I don't do it for a living, what's wrong with spending 4-5 hours under a car, in the gutter with the rain running down your back - beats shopping at the Trafford Centre.

And yes I can stretch an oil change to 5 hours if it looks like the living room might need a coat of paint - actually could manage the whole weekend if it's dry  Tangiers Orange - gone, missing her
Replaced by Ewok what a mistake - now a happy Disco Sport owner

Andy131 wrote:

How about this one - and it's just me rambling......

No-one at this point has interrogated your car, they don't have to as the manufacturer is the only approved source of software for your vehicle......
Insurer says sorry your not insured as your car was being used in an unsafe state, you get a bill for your car, and the other vehicle and you are looking at 10 points for no insurance.

To answer a few questions asked already, I think that safety critical software updates will be carried out free of charge as a recall by the manufacturer, possibly compulsory by law.
Under trays: We are not allowed to remove anything on an mot test as there will be too much liability on the garage/DVSA if anything is damaged.
As for disconnecting warning lamps, that wont work as part of the inspection entails ensuring that the light comes on, then goes off when it should.
*An engine management light staying on is not an automatic failure on petrol engine cars registered before July 2003 and diesel engined cars registered before July 2008.
Oh, and it’s getting stricter - brake, headlamp and emission testing machines will soon have to be 'connected'. They are looking at OBD hook up as well as number plate recognition in testing bays. This should completely cut out those stations that issue test certificates without even seeing the car. More here: https://mattersoftesting.blog.gov.uk/what-...s-for-you/ Past: FL2 TD4 HSE Auto
Evoque SD4 Dynamic Lux Auto
Present: Audi A3 S Line.

I understand the whole damaging the car bit when removing undertrays or similar to view on an MOT

but the same garage will remove them when you have the car serviced by them, so whats the difference?

there is a garage near me that advertises regularly that they do DPF/EGR deletes which also makes a vehicle unsafe in the eyes of the DVSA but so long as it passes emissions tests on MOT then its all good.

I know the MOT rules are constantly changing, because they have to, but its like sticking a plaster on a leaking hose over and over again. I do think its time for a major rewrite from scratch for the MOT which wont be easy given the age span of cars needing to be included, from 1930's classic cars (motor, wheels, transmission basically) to the latest super computers on wheels.

Given the numbers now that are doubtless running around in their heap of junk with no Mot (and as a consequence are not taxed or insuranced) adding software checks would possibly deter even more from skipping their annual check?

There is no requirement to have an MOT to tax or insure a vehicle.