I am not sure that providing a separate electric motor to the rear axle will give as good 4 wheel drive performance as using traditional clutch/differential connections from main engine/power source.

This clip shows an Outlander (twin separate front and rear electric motors) loosing grip on the front axle, but not having enough rear axle torque to pull boat clear of water.

https://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/view...amp;t=2676

We discussed this in 2018

https://www.freel2.com/forum/topic27469-90.html FL2 XS SD4 Auto 2010 2012-2017 (21k - 91k miles) (MY2011)
FL2 Metropolis SD4 Auto 2014 2017- (16k - 76k+ miles) (MY2015)

Last edited by IanMetro on 7th May 2021 11:54 pm. Edited 2 times in total

The Outlander is not designed to tow it can tow and seemingly only just, the capability of any car depends on the power of the motors the size of the conductors to the motor from the battery and the current drain of the battery based on temperature and time.
There is no point in having a 100kW motor if the battery is incapable of supplying 100kW for more than a couple of seconds due to over heating. Electric motors can have tremendous torque but to achieve that torque the power supply must be adequate.
I suspect that considerable thought needs to be exercised with hybrids and EV's for them to perform as their petrol and diesel equivalents, perhaps that is why LR is apparently so far behind their competitors, their customers expect a certain level of competence, maybe not all customers, but considering the price and the go anywhere reputation a problem like the Outlander experience would do more damage its reputation than the considered unreliability problem. Unreliable and incompetent would kill LR stone dead my PC is slightly to the right of Genghis
2012 HSE SD4 In Orkney Grey now gone, best car ever.

As the Outlander was one of the first PHEV, with quite a novel all electric (plus ICE charging - yes and a little direct ICE drive in some cruising conditions), the 'pioneer' first owners observed and 'back engineered' the electronic/electrical systems in some detail.

Anyone interested in the + and - points of owning a PHEV would find their forum fascinating.

https://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/sear...p;start=20

I was interested at the time (before I bought my second FL2) and it did seem at the time that the factory took notice of what was being said and included some of the forum's perceived vehicle usage problems as they updated the PHEV year by year.

The Outlander PHEV had a 80hp motor on each axle, but only half this power was available from the battery. The engine started if you required full power, and tended to scream away noisily.

I felt at the time that the FL2 was nicer to drive, so bought my Metro. FL2 XS SD4 Auto 2010 2012-2017 (21k - 91k miles) (MY2011)
FL2 Metropolis SD4 Auto 2014 2017- (16k - 76k+ miles) (MY2015)

Interesting if long read, brings up several points.
1) DC motors - no torque at standstill - actually maximum torque at standstill. Years ago AC motors no torque at standstill, but pentium class processors allowed drives to oscillate fields backwards and forwards creating huge amounts of torque (>70%) at 0Hz

2) Posters are confusing torque at the output, with torque at the engine/motor shaft. The engine has a gearbox, effectively multiplying the torque of the engine at lower gears. Motors tend to be used with fixed gearing which means that they are either geared for speed or low speed - the outlander looks to be geared for speed, and as such is bobbins for low speed that the OP was concerned about.

3) Mitsubishi are as likely to lie to their customers as any other manufacturer when it suits them.
4) the Outlander has open diffs and poor off-road capability - cross axles seem to stop movement.

The DS does seem to be acting as a limited slip diff as can be seen by the picture below -

Click image to enlarge

Series DC motors have high torque on startup however their current draw is high, the starter motor is a good example, the software is the critical component in electronic control 4wd, unless the software recognises all the wheels are braked and releases them to start again and or cut the power it's not fit for purpose. Torque is required to move the vehicle, however it is also the product that spins the wheels, the software must recognise and compute all conditions. my PC is slightly to the right of Genghis
2012 HSE SD4 In Orkney Grey now gone, best car ever.

I started this thread after reading Andy131 on this thread
https://www.freel2.com/forum/topic31339-255.html

He has what appears to be the ideal transmission set on his DS which will allow full engine torque to both or either of the rear wheels :-
Quote Andy131
As you can tell I have a D240

The rear "differential" is a GKN twinster unit, the front is a GKN Active connect system. Apparently it has the capability of locking the rear differential - wasted completely wasted on a buffoon like me, but it doesn't spin the wheels no matter how hard I try, and doesn't get stuck on cross axle situations, so as far as I am concerned it works. Downside, when it does eventually die (and it will) Bell Engineering are unlikely to come to the rescue.
https://www.freel2.com/gallery/albums/user...ential.JPG

The DS PHEV uses a 107hp electric motor to drive the rear wheels. This may be okay to qualify as 4x4 but I don't think it will perform as well in extreme towing/off road conditions as the 'Twinster' set up.

I agree with 'Dartman the one's comment that we are becoming very reliant on the software to recognise what is happening to the car (and driver?) and react in the correct way.

PS if you want to study what can go wrong (including unexpected consequences) with complex systems and human interfaces with them, try the TV series 'Air Crash Investigations'.
https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/video...estigation FL2 XS SD4 Auto 2010 2012-2017 (21k - 91k miles) (MY2011)
FL2 Metropolis SD4 Auto 2014 2017- (16k - 76k+ miles) (MY2015)

Much as I would like to believe that software is the panacea to all vehicle ills it's not true.
Poor software can make a good car dreadful, and good software can mask shortcomings in poor design to a point.

Got to agree that the Active driveline on my DS really does work well, in poor traction situations (snow/rain), across really rough terrain, and dragging boats up seaweed covered slipways. But it is a combination of good mechanical design and clever software, that due to low numbers produced is going to be a nightmare when it goes wrong. Even simple stuff like how often do I change the oil, how do I change the oil, and with what? LR are going to be no help as it fitted for life sir, my local very helpful independent said WTF is that - honest but.

When it comes to 4x4 it's all about design intent.....
4x4 as sales gimmick, just add some bits and charge a premium.
4x4 because 300bhp through one axle is stupid - come on BMW owners you know I am right.
4x4 because you want to go where there are no roads.
4x4 because you tow stuff
4x4 because it snows often where you live.

All of the above have different solutions. Sticking a motor on the rear axle works for the first and last option and might even work for the third, how you are going to charge it in the middle of no-where is a different issue.
Mechanical power transfer for the second option is good, but electric can be made to work IF you plough enough money into it at the start - Tesla.
If you tow stuff, mechanical wins every time, its always there, you can send every oz of power to the wheel with traction, give the car a low enough gear ratio and you could spin all four tyres trying to haul a laden truck up a steep incline - Police FFRR towing a laden HGV up Barton bridge (M60) in Manchester is a sight I will never forget, smoke pouring from all four tyres.

Forgot the last 4x4 option, because the Greens made me do it, ditch a fully working system and fit something that works enough to get you through the test to prove that you are environmentally sound  Tangiers Orange - gone, missing her
Replaced by Ewok what a mistake - now a happy Disco Sport owner

The plot gets thicker, I have just been reading in this weeks updated version of this article in Autocar that from 2024 all DS models will be built on the EMA platform.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-car...d-ev-power

That means that 2 separate electric motors will be driving the front and back axles respectively.
It will be available as a fully battery driven car, or as a plug in with a petrol ICE that will only act as a range extender / charger for the batteries (after the initial 60mile battery range)

To me the latter seems a similar set up to the Outlander PHEV, or as Autocar quote the Mazda MX-30 range extender version.

JLR appear to be saying that the fine control of the power and torque of the electric motors will benefit the grip provided better than the mechanical systems.

Although they say that the prices will have to go up market to pay for the development of the EMA chassis, I hope that their maintenance costs will fall in line with the reduced mechanical complexity.
Although to counter this I read that 'JLR is hoping up new revenue opportunities through connectivity'.

Also I read that so called 'off board data management' will allow 'predative maintenance and prognostics'.

Does this mean that the first time I know that my car has experienced a problem is when I receive a receipt for a repair that I have paid for by an automatic direct debit payment to them???? FL2 XS SD4 Auto 2010 2012-2017 (21k - 91k miles) (MY2011)
FL2 Metropolis SD4 Auto 2014 2017- (16k - 76k+ miles) (MY2015)

800v is about the voltage the old O and P class submarines ran on, obviously the new motors will be much more efficient, would assume the electronics will allow various voltages to be tapped off the battery to either extend the range or travel at higher speeds. 800v reduces the cable cross sectional area thus weight and cost, the down side is that it is a killer voltage therefore the measures to prevent inadvertent exposure and idiot proof to amatuer mechanics. There is also the wading problem, or will that option disappear, we have seen F1 drivers jump clear after accidents so as not to be the best route for the battery to ground thus experiencing a fatal shock, 80 + pensioners trying to jump out of the car after a crash doesn't seem practical  my PC is slightly to the right of Genghis
2012 HSE SD4 In Orkney Grey now gone, best car ever.

Lets be serious here 80Vdc is a killer, I know the regs say 150Vdc, but I for one have seen really bad burns at 72Vdc, the current available is frightening. So 800V is no more scary than the average forklift battery, insulation levels are similar as the ability to jump a gap is similar - once an arc has started the game is VERY different.

Forklift technicians in my time had no special training to work on electric forklifts so why the sudden necessity for safe areas and special tools?, spent many an hour in the rain messing about with stranded electric forklifts.

I still say it depends on the design intent, electric cars can work but you have to avoid compromise, a sports car with stiff short travel suspension is never going to cut it down a quarry, by the same token long travel suspension and high ground clearance is dangerous on a track day.
Until battery technology evolves or we switch to hydrogen fuel cells, then electric cars are not going to be suitable for towing, you just can't beat a tank of diesel/petrol for energy density, or refueling time.

When that time comes, a huge motor each end, or a moderate motor with gears each end will be the solution.
Those of a certain age have driven cars with 70bhp and less and towed without trouble, so 200bhp is just not necessary (nice though) - take a look at series 1 Land Rovers, you don't need masses of power as long as you can gear down. Tangiers Orange - gone, missing her
Replaced by Ewok what a mistake - now a happy Disco Sport owner

Andy131 said
Those of a certain age have driven cars with 70bhp and less and towed without trouble, so 200bhp is just not necessary (nice though) - take a look at series 1 Land Rovers, you don't need masses of power as long as you can gear down.

If I remember correctly 'those of a certain age' didn't need 4x4 when things got tough, - They just put a couple of bags of sand in the boot each winter to increase rear traction.

I have just noticed in the JLR article I am reading that the new DS will 'consolidate and reduce the numbers of ECUs' by using an ethernet connected 'Domain Based Architecture'.

This separate article explains the ideal
https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/release-note/A...rticle.pdf

It seems that we are getting closer to a few interconnected mini computers running things. I am sure that this will lead to a 'First Line' box swap by your local garage, backed up by a 'Second Line' computer repair facility and spares store system.
With automatic and/or remote fault diagnosis this should cut down the need for fully trained technicians at garage level.
Combine this with easily swapped 'lifetime' mechanical components and garages may become quicker and more efficient.

I have seen this move from Technician to Service Rep happen many times, over the years in the different industries I have been involved in. FL2 XS SD4 Auto 2010 2012-2017 (21k - 91k miles) (MY2011)
FL2 Metropolis SD4 Auto 2014 2017- (16k - 76k+ miles) (MY2015)