Ok. I can speak to this. Long post coming A couple of years ago, I downsized from an early 4.4 petrol FFRR on LPG to a 2yr old XS manual freelander. Over the last couple of years I've tarted it up a little bit here and there, but essentially, its pretty much as I bought it. Over the years I've had or driven most of the LR range so now how each of them feel and compare. I'm not going to talk about how the deal was financed or how you should finance yours.

In terms of general use, I need a car to:

- Go to and from the stables in all weathers
- A and B road driving with a little bit of tracks and fields
- Occasional longer trips of a few hundred miles
- Tow the horse trailer
- Take me, the wife, the 2yr old + bikes and kit somewhere.

Its probably easier to break it into sections ... so here goes

Why I got rid of the FFRR and downsized in general:
The FFRR was getting that it needed too much work for an MOT (rear subframe bushes + other big job stuff), My kid was newly born, I was doing a home-study diploma, work was busy and stressful, and in general, I just did't have the time. Getting rid and replacing with something that would offer more reliability solved a major hurdle in reducing the load on me at the time. As much as a I liked the V8 on LPG, we needed something that was going to be less hassle in finding fuel.

I considered another FFRR, but was worried about the turbo reliability of the 3.6Tdv8, didn't want the 3.0 td6 due to gearbox, and didn't want the same V8 due to heat issues. I also figured that just by getting another, I would be running through all the same issues I had gone through with my existing one due to age and wear and tear. I like the D3 for size, but the timing belt bracket issue was slap bang in the frame for what I could afford, and similarly the RR sport, and compared to the newer versions, didn't really like the interiors of either. The 3.0 D4, RRS and evoque were out of the price range.

Which really left the FL2. On paper it ticked the boxes of being able to do the list of things we wanted. For our budget, we would get something that still had a years warranty, reasonable spec and economy etc etc. Test drove one, liked it, and made the change pretty quickly.

The FL2 is a lot smaller than an FFRR
To begin with, I didn't really notice the size difference, but as time has gone on, its becoming more noticeable. As I have a kid, initially they fit within child seats and don't extend beyond them. Now as a toddler, he does. His feet sit forward and hit the back of front seats at times. With me being 6ft tall, this really means he can't sit behind me, and the passenger has to sit with the seat a bit forward. I don't think I would be doing the same with the FFRR.

Cabin wise, the front space is fine, but notably narrower between the seats. I really miss the cubby box and arm rests ... a lot. On mine, there isn't really great storing space for things for the driver. There is no docket under the light switch. There is no coin tray or flat area towards the front half of the centre. Anything you store either sits in cup holders or a square box at the rear of the centre console. On the RR, you had these things which made it great for phones and stuff ready to hand. Even my mini cooper is better than the Fl2 in that regard.

Front seats are comfy at all times, but just a little smaller than the RR, which I notice around the shoulders. Rear seats are alright, but compared to the RR, they don't feel as firm or strong at the edges, so you kind of roll off the edge of them getting out. Anyone I've given lifts to though compliment the rear seats and cabin in general as being a nice place to be.

Boot space. More than anything, I notice that its narrower between the wheel arches and narrower in general. I used to be able to get a bike frame sideways in the FFRR. No chance in the FL2. That being said, I've never ran out of boot space so to speak, I've always managed to get what I need in (buggies + all the other stuff) with creative packing and using space on the rear seats. With the FFRR, there was less of having to be creative, and just fling it in.

Having horses, I miss the split tailgate. Being able to sit on it or lean against it putting things in the boot without getting dirty has turned out to be something I notice that I miss quite a lot. With the Fl2, i've had to be more careful about staying clean by not touching the rear of the car leaning in.

Differences in driving.
I'd say that the FL2 wins on quite a lot of points in this area. Its a lighter car, and you notice it when driving through the corners. Its quite nimble, good acceleration when on boost from the turbo, yet its heavy enough to feel planted going through the corners. I've very rarely felt it skip or go light under cornering, even when pressed on quite hard, and it doesn't feel like it leans or wallows much as the FFRR did. Compared to the RR, I find it can be quite engaging. On more sedate long distance driving, yes the RR is more refined, but I've never really felt that after a long trip I'm more weary from the Fl2. It eats up the motorway miles just as well.

Towing is an interesting one for me. I have to say, for towing the same horse in the same trailer, I feel that the Fl2 is notably more accomplished than the FFRR was. I used to find that the FFRR would have to rev fairly hard to get the trailer up to speed, and once there at 50-55mph, it would hunt gears trying to maintain speed. Even in manual mode, the 5spd ZF box on the RR would hunt between TC lockup being on/off. Due to the high running temp of the 4.4 V8, it would also go into safe modes to try and protect the gearbox from overheating ... again this annoyed me ... and was solved by modifying the running temp of the engine, but thats a different story.

The FL2 on the other hand seems to be able to pull the trailer with a lot more ease. Getting upto speed seems to happen with less fuss or effort. The torque from the engine really shines when accelerating. Maintaining cruising speed is much better too as a result. It just goes and tows better.

However, i don't feel the FL2 stops as well as the FFRR. Whilst I've not reached the absolute limit of overheating the brakes, I do feel that sometimes when coming to stops from high speed/high load/steep hills, the brakes feel like they are reaching the upper ends of their ability. You could go deeper with the FFRR and get more out of the braking without reaching that point where you think you are getting to the limit.

Build Quality and Mechanicals
There is no doubt, the FL2 just does not have the quality of the FFRR. Its a great all round car, but you can tell and see why its cheaper. The plastic isn't quite as good. The materials and switches aren't as good. The design lines just don't feel as cohesive as the RR ( I hate how the dash meets the door! - its like the 2 parts have never seen each other before the assembly line ). Things have a higher, cheaper feel and parts are left uncovered and unhidden. If you were upgrading from a Jap 4x4, then the FL2 is much better, but coming down from the RR, you realise how spoiled you've been. I miss the RR for this.

Mechanically, its an LR, its going to have issues. My turbo went (fixed under mfr warranty), my throttle body went (thought it was EGR initially) and the rear diff went. The rear diff annoyed me the most ... at 40k miles, it really shouldn't fail, and I think highlights my thoughts of the Fl2 being a specced up car derivative rather than a specced down full land rover.

Other than that, its generally been reliable. Jump in, start it, drive off, no errors. Cant say the same for the FFRR.

Overall
Overall, I do like it, I really do, and I recommend them to others who ask. Objectively considered on its own, for my needs it ticks all the boxes and fulfils my needs more than adequately. Its got me through that busy time of my life where I needed a car without too much hassle. I walk unto it and think its nice, looks good and smart.

However, for all its faults, I seriously miss the FFRR. I don't get in the Fl2, look round and think "yeah, this is nice" in the same way I did with the FFRR. My wife comments on this. I used to keep the RR cleaner and tidier whereas the FL2 is more in the just a car bracket. Don't get me wrong, I do keep it clean, but just not as often.


Would I get another
Yeah, sure. As above, meets all my needs. I can't fault it for that, and I do like driving it. Compared against other vehicles of its type, I would get the FL2 again.

Will I get another after this one
Right at this time, I don't think so. Whilst it fulfils my needs, it doesn't fulfil my heart. We are already talking about what we will do with the FL2 towards the latter end of this year, and I have been voicing my thoughts and thinkings to the wife about what I would like. The busy time has passed, so I am able to consider something which may need a bit of work / maintenance and have an element of hobby/passion to running it. With that in mind:

RR Evoque - Wife's favourite, but lacks the heft of being a big-car which I like. Lower towing weight too ... borderline for the horse trailer imho.
D4 - Best for space, great towing, interior OK, but like the design of the RRS more
RRS - 3.0 Tdv6 - best interior style, I love it ... but i can't help think I could get an FFRR for the same money
RR 3.6 Tdv8 - nice, but still worry about the turbo issues
RR 4.4 AJV8 - Nice, but rare
RR 4.2 SC - At the moment, my heart say this one. I'd be prepared to lower my buying budget and put the money to fuel costs. From the FFRR site, its arguably the most reliable and less likely to have £1k bills for turbo's and EGR issues.



So to conclude, I've downsized to a FL2. Its a very good car, but I miss the FFRR a lot.

Which D4 would you go for seeing you have a lot of knowledge on the issues with the range of LR motors? Did the early ones have a different engine to latter ones? * GONE. GS TD4 Manual MY2013. Orkney Grey with privacy, cold and clearview packs, armrests (a must!) and a spoiler.
* 2011 4.4 TDV8 Full Fat. Amazing piece of kit.
* GONE.2012 RR Sport HSE SDV6 Orkney Grey. Rocket ship. 33mpg.
* Range Rover Classic '93 200Tdi Factory fit
* 1949 80" in family since 1975

As I understand it, the 2.7 tdv6 of around the 2007-2008 eras had issues with the casting that holds one of the timing belt pulleys. For some reason the casting changed to remove supporting material around the pulley mount and as a result, it sheared off causing belt failure. Latter models have had revised castings that beef up the support, reducing the issue. The 3.0 that you get in the d4 doesn't suffer from this I don't believe.

If I were to go for a discovery, then it would need to be:
The newer d4 model with 3.0 engine
Leather
Xenon hid lights
Bluetooth phone.
Other than that, not overly fussed over other specs.

Thanks Fisha
I remember your name on the FF forum.
The problem is a change of requirement and reliability.
The FF was originally bought as a highday and holiday car to tow the caravan. I do a bigish commute so have an ecobox/MGTF for that but it's across the the Derbyshire hills so need a 4x4 sometimes.
SHMBO only does a couple of miles so it all worked fine.
Then we decided to sell the van and buy a holiday home abroard, the FF was a dream I can drive there in a day get out fresh and haul as much stuff as I want.
However the Landrover reliability issues started, ignoring the little niggles we all love about landrovers I have twice had the gearbox go, last time in Paris the subsequent nightmare is on the FF forum.
Also even though mines a diesel the fuel bill is the biggest part of the expense of getting there.
I was hoping the Freelander would be a more economical and reliable alternative while still staying with Landrover (The Disco/Sport too unreliable and dont really offer any benefit over the FF).
My dad and brother have Freelander 2's both have had niggles and new diffs, my other brother (who ownes a garage and deals with cars every day) has walked away from Landrover and bought a Kia Sportage over an Ewock.

So It looks like if I want bit of space econonomy and reliability its a Santa Fe or similar
Or a TDV8 Range Rover and a very good warranty!

fisha wrote:

As I understand it, the 2.7 tdv6 of around the 2007-2008 eras had issues with the casting that holds one of the timing belt pulleys. For some reason the casting changed to remove supporting material around the pulley mount and as a result, it sheared off causing belt failure.

The tensioner is on the oil pump casing so can be changed at the 105k/7yr cam belt service.

Andy, I think space is the only thing you might struggle with with the FL2, but I managed to downsize from a D3 which is even bigger. My use is similar to fisha's.

Re feeling short changed, I suppose you would but, IMO, it would be ten times worse to not be in a LR.

What was the cause of your gearbox failure (auto?)? Many auto D3/RRSs are failing because LR did not recommend a gearbox flush was done at an appropriate time. With (much) care the larger LRs can be very reliable - I maintain mine myself so this is manageable for me.

TBH, if I had a FFRR, I think I would find it very hard to get rid of it. Freelander 2 2007 TD4 Manual HSE Tambora Flame
Discovery 3 2006 TDV6 Auto HSE Zambezi Silver
Previously: Freelander 2 2007 TD4 Manual SE Santorini Black

Thanks for the reply
The gearbox is a well known issue on the TD6 FF
lots and lots of info on the FF forum however mine failed when the replacement torque convertor let go shattering the gearbox oil pump. I have just finished taking the specialist who repaired it throught the small claims court as it had only covered 10k since it was repaired as the torque converter had become noisy (and that was under warranty from the first time it went) 25k total
First time just coming out of Dover on the M20 towing the van lost 5th gear but managed to limp home,
Second time total failure on the outskirts of Paris not towing but wife kids and dog I wasn't a very happy bunny.

I think it's a real pity that the td6 got the 5spd box, and not the 6spd zf of later models.. I think that combination would be top choice of reliability and economy.

Speaking of economy, going by the dash I get about 32 to 33 all round, doesn't really vary much from that. Even on a long run, unless you drop your speed to well below 70.

Bought a new D3 in 2005, 2011 traded it in for a new D4 and kept til 2013, then to a FL2 since Aug 14.

However, I think I downsized the easier way.
I went to a mere car for a year - a sporty model of the Insignia ST.
So moving back to a Land Rover [but a FL2 this time] was made that bit easier.
Think I would've suffered if I went from the great spec of my D4 straight down to the GS spec of the FL2.
Having a mere car for a year certainly softened that blow.

Now, I'm happy enough with the FL2 [although my preferance still is with the D4 - best all round vehicle IMO].
But the 3 points below are adding to my liking of the FL2.
1] I've been really impressed recently when the snow came and how sure footed the FL2 was [when even other 4x4s were squirming around on the straights], it held its line solidly.
2] As my personalisation programme is taking shape, that also is adding to my liking of the vehicle.
3] When visiting the D3/4 forum I hear of the woes and expense of running these vehicles, I'm quietly chuckling to myself how reliable and cost effective the FL2 is by comparison.

These three points are endearing me more and more to the FL2 and confirming that I have made the correct choice.

fisha wrote:

As I understand it, the 2.7 tdv6 of around the 2007-2008 eras had issues with the casting that holds one of the timing belt pulleys. For some reason the casting changed to remove supporting material around the pulley mount and as a result, it sheared off causing belt failure. Latter models have had revised castings that beef up the support, reducing the issue. The 3.0 that you get in the d4 doesn't suffer from this I don't believe.

If I were to go for a discovery, then it would need to be:
The newer d4 model with 3.0 engine
Leather
Xenon hid lights
Bluetooth phone.
Other than that, not overly fussed over other specs.

Cool. I thought the 3 was the better one. I'd love one but mpg no good for my 62 round commute. Love my current Freelander and glad I specced it up from the base GS model spec. Will keep it a while until LR release new models of Disco and Defemder with hybrid high mpg engines  * GONE. GS TD4 Manual MY2013. Orkney Grey with privacy, cold and clearview packs, armrests (a must!) and a spoiler.
* 2011 4.4 TDV8 Full Fat. Amazing piece of kit.
* GONE.2012 RR Sport HSE SDV6 Orkney Grey. Rocket ship. 33mpg.
* Range Rover Classic '93 200Tdi Factory fit
* 1949 80" in family since 1975

Be very careful, the 5 and 7year warranties on these far eastern products only tend include the drive train, the rest is 3years or 60,000 miles, the clutch is not included in the drive train. Basically their warranties need close scrutiny, really no better than LR as the SOGA gives you a 6 year(5 in Scotland )coverage dependent on mileage on major parts, not JLR your dealer. Engines, gearboxes and differentials and probably power steering all have an expected life span and failure to meet that lifespan can constitute not fit for purpose, not the car, just that item my PC is slightly to the right of Genghis
2012 HSE SD4 In Orkney Grey now gone, best car ever.

Dartman
I don't think any warranty covers wear parts like the clutch and brakes.
Would be looking for an Auto anyway I am not so keen but SHMBO likes an auto and parking sensors!

There seem to be warranty claims rebutted at 3000 miles plus, and many are experienced drivers on clutches. I was more thinking of suspension parts that fail early. my PC is slightly to the right of Genghis
2012 HSE SD4 In Orkney Grey now gone, best car ever.