http://news.sky.com/story/1302864/malaysia...5-on-board



My thoughts are with the families of the victims. LL.B (Hons) - University of Derby
LOT (Lord of Time) - University of Gallifrey

If shot down then at that height it's a sophisticated missile (so not a man with a shoulder launched SAM) or another aircraft so assuming it wasn't deliberate it's a monumental screw up by someone. However it has to be remembered that it's the second a/c from this airline to go down within a few weeks which is a huge coincidence......or is it? From a time when dinosaurs weren't just confined to zoos!

The above link reports of BUK GtA missile
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

I think I read that a commercial airline went down at somepoint too

Even though there is no officially clarified reason yet, I find it strange it's the same airline too Former Mod/Member, with the most post & Chicken George Arch nemesis

A sad day for free travellers everywhere.
thoughts with the families of all affected by this tragedy.
Notificationto pilots clearly says 'Strongly advised to avoid thie area',but it's optional.



En-Route Information

Q) EGXX/QAFXX/IV/NBO/E/000/999/5552N00617W999

B) FROM: 14/06/30 17:01C) TO: 14/08/01 00:01

E) POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS SITUATION UKRAINE AIRSPACE, PARTICULARLY OVER
CRIMEA, THE BLACK SEA, AND THE SEA OF AZOV.
DUE TO THE POTENTIAL FOR CONFLICTING AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL (ATC)
INSTRUCTIONS FROM UKRAINIAN AND RUSSIAN AUTHORITIES AND FOR THE
RELATED POTENTIAL MISIDENTIFICATION OF CIVIL AIRCRAFT, UK AIRCRAFT
OPERATORS ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO AVOID, UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, THE
AIRSPACE OVER CRIMEA, THE BLACK SEA, AND THE SEA OF AZOV, WITHIN THE
FOLLOWING LATERAL LIMITS:
454500N 0345800E-460900N 0360000E-460000N 0370000E-452700N 0364100E-
452242N 0364100E-451824N 0363524E-451442N 0363542E-451218N 0363200E-
450418N 0363418E-445600N 0363700E-443100N 0364000E-424400N 0361600E-
424700N 0340000E-424800N 0304500E-434100N 0303200E-441500N 0302400E-
444600N 0300900E-455400N 0322500E-454900N 0324700E-455400N 0330600E-
455600N 0332700E-455900N 0332900E-THEN ALONG THE CRIMEA BORDER TO
454500N 0345800E.

Just over 2 weeks ago the pro Russian Separatists displayed on the Russian TV channel "Russia 24" (who are on the ground is separatist control areas) what they claimed was a captured ex Ukrainian "BUK" rocket launcher. The Ukrainian army did not confirm any loss of such equipment.

It is a known fact that the border between Russia and the areas controlled by the Separatists is porous and that arms shipments are daily moving across this border. It is also known that skilled military manpower ex Russian military forces (so called volunteers) have been placed at the disposal of Separatist command to instruct and use these modern armaments.

Approximately 20 minutes before the first news leaked globally that MH17 had been hit the Separatist Command had claimed on their Twitter account that they had just shot down another Ukrainian Antonov transporter.

When the news of the MH17 downing went global that claim by the Separatists was quickly removed from their Twitter account.

Draw your own conclusions as to the shooting down of MH17.

Certainly some big questions that need answering. It will be interesting to hear what the White House has to say. LL.B (Hons) - University of Derby
LOT (Lord of Time) - University of Gallifrey

Here's another conundrum for you:

Why was "Russia 24" the first TV crew on the crash site?
To shoot the first footage of yet another Ukrainian Antonov brought down by the local resistance?

Draw your own conclusions.

The Ukrainian Security Service put the Russian-language conversations on YouTube within hours of the crash.

The veracity of the recordings cannot be confirmed,

First Recording:

[Male voice, identified as separatist leader Igor Bezler] The group of the Miner [an alias] has just shot down a plane, which came down just behind Yenakiyevo.

[Col Geranin] Pilots. Where are the pilots?

[Bezler] Gone to search for and photograph the plane. It's smoking.

[Second male voice, identified as Russian military intelligence Colonel Vasily Geranin] How many minutes ago?

[Bezler] About 30 minutes ago.

Second Recording:

[Male voice, captioned as "The Greek" ] Yes, Major.

[Major] Well, the Chernukhino lads shot down the plane.

[Greek] Who shot it down?

[Major] From the Chernukhino roadblock. The Cossacks at Chernukhino.

[Greek] Yes, Major.

[Major] Well, the plane fell apart in the air, near the Pertropavlovskaya coal mine. The first casualty 200 [military jargon for dead body] has been found. A civilian.

[Greek] Well, what do you have there?

[Major] Basically it was 100% a civilian aircraft.

[Greek] Are many people there?

[Major] [Curses] The debris fell right into backyard.

[Greek] What kind of aircraft?

[Major] I have not figured this out yet because I haven't been close to the main body of the debris. I am only looking where the first bodies began to fall. There are the remnants of inner brackets, chairs and bodies there.

[Greek] I see. Any weaponry there?

[Major] Nothing at all. Civilian things, medical bits and bobs, towels, toilet paper.

[Greek] Any documents?

[Major] Yes. From an Indonesian student. From Thompson University [curses].

Third Recording:

[Male voice, identified as a fighter] Regarding the plane shot down in the area of Snezhnoye-Torez. It's a civilian one. Fell down near Grabovo. There are lots of corpses of women and children. The Cossacks are out there looking at all this.

They say on TV it's a Ukrainian AN-26 transport plane, but they say it's got Malaysia Airlines written on the plane. What was it doing in Ukrainian territory?

[Male voice, identified as Cossack commander Nikolai Kozitsyn] That means they were carrying spies. They shouldn't be [curses] flying. There is a war going on.

End of Recordings.

An American has been confirmed as being on board now.

Obama speech: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28375256 LL.B (Hons) - University of Derby
LOT (Lord of Time) - University of Gallifrey

From the humanitarian perspective it does not matter what nationality a passenger may be - it was an act of terrorism, mistaken identity of aircraft type or not at 10,000 meters.

From a political standpoint, that confirmation of a US citizen on board will only serve to harden the stance of the hawks in and out of the US Administration, which in turn will only make it harder for all the belligerent parties to come to a negotiated mutually acceptable settlement to the Ukrainian crisis.

Notwithstanding the above comments, the perpetrators of this ghastly crime must be brought before a court of law for trial.

Footage emerged on Sky News earler apparently from police in the region. They filmed an SA11 battery on the move towards the Russian border with one of its four missiles missing.... LL.B (Hons) - University of Derby
LOT (Lord of Time) - University of Gallifrey

I've been following the story here - http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1022018/pg31&mem=

I thing I will say is that I disagree with Russia Todays coverage.... even with bits blured I think it was too soon and too graphic for some thing that was been repeated over and over.

They too showed kids faces on passports etc in the very early hours of the incident... so sad....

As to what the end game will be I have no idea.

T Terran



'The' Car For The Modern Day UK Roads ( ie all the pot holes )

'A Freelander that leaks oil is just marking its territory' - Wise words

Now a member of the FL2 'Silly Bill' Club

No doubt that big guns like the CIA will be analysing satellite and other data to prove where the missile came from. The latest word is that rebels have been tampering with evidence and looting from luggage and the bodies. No confirmation on the black boxes either.

If that's true, then it is a monumental outrage. Accident investigators need to go in and if rebels refuse to back down, the UN should authorise peacekeepers to go in with them solely to protect them from rebel attacks. Only to fire at rebels if fired upon. A UN recognised act like that seems fair to me but I dare say Russia wouldn't agree. LL.B (Hons) - University of Derby
LOT (Lord of Time) - University of Gallifrey

That Doc will never happen.
Russia is a member of the UN Security Council and will veto any such motion. China another member of the UNSC will abstain.

Putin and the Russian army are the only body that can immediately go straight in and secure the "scene of the crime" - that will not happen.

The whole crash site has already been contaminated and compromised by locals and pro Russian independence rebels. Corpses have been moved, material evidence tampered with, and now it's reported that the two black boxes have supposedly been found and now "lost". The OSCE inspectors are denied full working access on the site.

Time for all Russian banks to be denied cross border EU trading facilities, and for all Russian registered airlines and aircraft to be denied access to European airspace. If there was a time for the EU members to flex their economic muscle in a good cause that time is now. Merkle must show leadership otherwise the rest of the EU members will not stand completely united.

It's just horrendous. Putin is like old school Soviet Union and threatens to return sanctions on the EU by cutting the gas supply etc. He seems to think that if he shouts jump, Europe will ask how high. Europe must stop talking the talk and start walking the walk.

Mr Obama said that we don't have time for propaganda and games.... LL.B (Hons) - University of Derby
LOT (Lord of Time) - University of Gallifrey