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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 14th Sep 2007 6:39 am
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To all interested:
due to the pollution control measures of the EC diesel-oil is nearly sulphur free and contains up to 5% of bio-diesel. Sulphur has the property to grease the high pressure injection pump and the injectors. Without sulphur, the reduced greasing property of the new diesel has already shown negativ impacts on the long-term stability of the injectors and the high pressure pump. The pump manufacturers have tried to react by lining the moving parts of the pumps with teflon or other suitable material. However, the long term stability is still not achieved as with the old (sulphor contained) diesel.
The engine-research centre of a well known German car manufacurer has conducted some long term tests of diesel additives to find out whether any one of them will have an impact on the long term reliability of the diesel engine components. This introduction to explain were my information comes from.
The results of this research: any diesel additive of any manufacturer presently on the market is not worth the money!
BUT: 2-stroke oil, which we use in our motor saws, lawn mower or in 2-stroke motor engines has shown to have an extreme positive impact on diesel engines, if such 2-stroke oil is added to the diesel in a homoeophatic dosis of 1:200. In practical terms: 0,300 litre of 2-stroke oil into the 70l diesel tank. The 2-stroke oil will be absorbed by the diesel (emulsion) and grease every moving part of the high pressure pump and the injectors.
Besides this, the 2-stroke oil will keep the diesel engine clean, as it burnes cleaner as the diesel itself.
In other words, the 2-stroke oil has a much lower ash-content as diesel, when burned. This proven fact delays the DPF (diesel particulate (soot) filter) to clogg, and the "burn free" process of the DPF will be much less.
One more information: in Germany we have to present our cars every 2 years to the TUV -Technical Supervision Organisation - who will check, amongs others, the pollution of petrol and diesel engines.
The measured cloud-factor of a diesel engine without use of 2-stroke oil has been 0,95.
The same factor with the use of 2-stroke oil has been 0,47 - reduction of nearly half of the soot particles.
Besides this, the use of 2-stroke oil in the diesel will increase the milage by 3-5%.
Yamaha-Fan
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joe1978
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 181
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Posted: 14th Sep 2007 7:31 am
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joe
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defkalion
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 345
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Posted: 14th Sep 2007 10:33 am
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yf 
However, are you saying that diesel owners should add some 2-stroke oil whenever they fill up their tanks, or should do that every now and then? Doesn't this affect other parts of the engine? How about cars without a c-pdf?
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evanessen
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 12
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Posted: 14th Sep 2007 10:38 am
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Hi YF,
You mentioned 2-stroke oil as used in lawn-mowers etc. How about more sophisticated 2-stroke oils like Shell Advance Scooter 2T (fully synthetic, exceeds JASO FC, API TC, ISO-L-EGC)? Does it make any difference or will any 2-stroke oil do the job.
Eddy
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 14th Sep 2007 10:59 am
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I would be more concerned whether adding Two Stoke oil would invalidate your warrenty,
If you have something go wrong and they required to do a fuel test and they found two stroke oil in the diesel. 
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 14th Sep 2007 11:37 am
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To all:
Def: yes, fill in 0,3 litre of 2-stroke oil with every tank filling. You will notice a surprisingly big difference in the smoothness of your engine running, the noise level is reduced, particularely when the engine is cold, and the fuel ecconomy will increase besides the described other advantages.
The 2-stroke oil I can recommend from my own experience (value for price) is the Liqui Moly 2-stoke oil, semi-synthetic, Product no. 1052 (blue plastic bottle). The use of 2-stroke oil is recommended also for diesel engines without DPF. If you "forget" to fill in the little dosis of 2-stroke oil - no problem. Just fill it in the next time.
Everybody who has used the 2-stroke oil in his/her diesel engine has confirmed that they could not have done better.
Evanessen: see above. Do not use fully synthetic 2-stroke oil, as too expensive, and you do not really need this high quality for your purpose. Semi-synthetic will do.
npinks: the use of 2-stroke oil in the diesel will under normal circumstances not be evident, as the 2-stroke oil will be absorbed by the diesel by forming an emulsion, which will not seperate.
As I have said, we have to undergo every 2 years a pollution control inspection by our TUV, and the emission values as measured are by far better with use of 2-stroke oil than without. I have not come accross any case in which a car manufacturer has waived its guarantee obligo for cars which have used this 2-stroke oil (off course, not knowing this).
Dismantling the test diesel engines after the 2-stroke oil test has revealed that such engines have been in an extroardinary clean and top condition. So why should any car manufacturer have any reason to waive any guarantees (for whatever technical reasons) if the concerned engine is otherwise in a clean and top condition.
Yamaha-Fan
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 14th Sep 2007 12:05 pm
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Vauxhall told me they took a fuel sample to be analysed for anything been added (Petrol, Additives, Dirt) I think they was looking for some petrol in my diesel car that was misfiring and cutting out at motorway speeds. And couldn't find anything wrong on the computer.
It turned out it was just diesel in the car and 2 sensors had gone intermitantly on the timing belts, but if they found anything in the fuel I think I would have been having to argue with them. Obviously Fuel can not alter the sensors on timing belts.
But I wouldn't take the risk now and leave the two stroke to my lawnmower
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wildrover
Joined: 31 Aug 2007
Posts: 109
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Posted: 14th Sep 2007 8:13 pm
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I mentioned this idea to my local dealer this morning while there on another issue.
Basically, he says "DON'T".
The engine has numerous sensors, some of them monitoring the fuel pressure, mixture, spray etc etc etc and additives may adversly affect the engine. it might be ok to use the 2-stroke oil on old diesel engines but the F2 is full of electronics.
Like the idea but i'll give it a miss.
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 15th Sep 2007 2:06 pm
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Wildrover, sorry having to say that, but putting this question to your LR-dealer was not very wise. What do you expect him to say. He has to go according to rules and regulations, and we all know how much non-sense some rules and regulation represent in practical and/or logical terms.
To answer your question: I use the homoeopathic dosis of 2-stroke oil in my Freelander 2 TD4 Automatic from day one (now for some months), and my engine is running fine, and the electronics do not protest. My fuel consumption with automatic is at present 8,8l/100 km, and the burn free process of my DPF (diesel soot filter) takes place at an average of 1.200 to 1.300 km (normally, without 2-stroke oil, this happens around every 600 to 700 km). Nobody can convince me, that this positive effect will do any harm to engine or electronics.
But it is up to everybody to decide,
Landrover recommends the use of Motor Oil for the Freelander 2 according to the Ford Norm 913B. This norm respresents the lowest available oil norm according to ACEA B1/B1 with reduced HTHS value (shearing stability). This norm is absolutly not suitable for the Freelander TD4, and if you want to destroy your engine soon, than you follow this recommendation. Annother example of unwise rules and regulations.
We are all aware that the TD4 engine is a cooperation between Peugeot and Ford, and Peugeot demands motor oil for their TD4 of a much higher quality than Ford. How come?
Yamaha-Fan
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albert frederik
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 37
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Posted: 15th Sep 2007 6:18 pm
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Good evening Yamahafan,
to be honest we have now driven 5000 km and our average consumption is 10l/100km
Question:
This burn free process at your car is it shown in the dash?? since i have never seen or experienced this yet.
regards albert frederik.
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jimmy
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 300
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Posted: 1st Oct 2007 11:33 am
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Hi,
Do you also recommend adding this oil to the enhanced performance diesel fuels eg "Diesel Extra".
Is it worth paying the extra cost to use these performance diesel fuels, or are they  ??
thanks, Jimmy
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jimmy
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 300
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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 11:36 am
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yamaha-fan wrote:To all interested:
due to the pollution control measures of the EC diesel-oil is nearly sulphur free and contains up to 5% of bio-diesel. Sulphur has the property to grease the high pressure injection pump and the injectors. Without sulphur, the reduced greasing property of the new diesel has already shown negativ impacts on the long-term stability of the injectors and the high pressure pump. The pump manufacturers have tried to react by lining the moving parts of the pumps with teflon or other suitable material. However, the long term stability is still not achieved as with the old (sulphor contained) diesel.
The engine-research centre of a well known German car manufacurer has conducted some long term tests of diesel additives to find out whether any one of them will have an impact on the long term reliability of the diesel engine components. This introduction to explain were my information comes from.
The results of this research: any diesel additive of any manufacturer presently on the market is not worth the money!
BUT: 2-stroke oil, which we use in our motor saws, lawn mower or in 2-stroke motor engines has shown to have an extreme positive impact on diesel engines, if such 2-stroke oil is added to the diesel in a homoeophatic dosis of 1:200. In practical terms: 0,300 litre of 2-stroke oil into the 70l diesel tank. The 2-stroke oil will be absorbed by the diesel (emulsion) and grease every moving part of the high pressure pump and the injectors.
Besides this, the 2-stroke oil will keep the diesel engine clean, as it burnes cleaner as the diesel itself.
In other words, the 2-stroke oil has a much lower ash-content as diesel, when burned. This proven fact delays the DPF (diesel particulate (soot) filter) to clogg, and the "burn free" process of the DPF will be much less.
One more information: in Germany we have to present our cars every 2 years to the TUV -Technical Supervision Organisation - who will check, amongs others, the pollution of petrol and diesel engines.
The measured cloud-factor of a diesel engine without use of 2-stroke oil has been 0,95.
The same factor with the use of 2-stroke oil has been 0,47 - reduction of nearly half of the soot particles.
Besides this, the use of 2-stroke oil in the diesel will increase the milage by 3-5%.
Yamaha-Fan
I've just tried this and added closer to 0.5 ltr (then 0.33 ltr) of shell 2 stroke oil to a full tank of diesel (the oil can slipped  ).
Maybe I'm hearing things - but the engine did sound quieter - much, much less "rattle".
Anyone else tried YF's advice and added 2 stroke oil ?
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Goldstone69
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 403
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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 11:55 am
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Can someone please explain if adding 2 stroke oil has so many (proven ?) benefits why LR and other manufacturers don`t recommend doing it 
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 2:01 pm
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Goldstone69 wrote:Can someone please explain if adding 2 stroke oil has so many (proven ?) benefits why LR and other manufacturers don`t recommend doing it
If they did, it would mean that they admit their engines - or at least their sophisticated diesel injection pumps - are not adapted to the modern diesel fuel.
That wouldn't be in their own interest, would it ?
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 4:24 pm
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You may all know that Mercedes Benz have conducted in 2007 a long distance reliability test with a number of Mercedes E-Class 320 cdi from Paris to Beijing. Due to the fact that the diesel quality in East European Countries, Russia and China does not meet the DIN requirements, and Mercedes did not want to take the risk of their engines to flopp due to lousy fuel, the total tour has been accompanied by diesel tanks to re-fuel the E-Class cdi's. Selected members of the Mercedes clientele could apply to participate in selected parts of this test-tour, and advocats and notaries had to certify the correctness of this long term reliability test.
Although Mercedes does not like it published or made public, it is a fact that the diesel-fuel used for this test did contain 2-stroke oil to grease the high pressure pump components and to keep the engines clean during this marathon.
Why our car manufacturers do not officially allow the homoeophatic addition of 2-stroke oil to the diesel fuel has many reasons, mostly of legal nature. Besides this, which car manufacturer has any interest in excessive reliability of their engines? Their repair shops will have great problems.
Meanwhile the "2-stroke-oil to diesel" issue has attracted the interest of a number of Universities in Germany, as this 2-stroke oil has shown to have amazing poperties if added in a small dosis to diesel fuel (1:200), especially the positive impact on air pollution, reduced fuel consumption and improved long term reliability of the diesel engine. The pro and con discussions will go on for a while. But as soon as an accademic report has been published by one of our Universities, this will change very fast.
By the way: all car manufacturers reject the addition of any fuel "additive" in their cars, and warn that guarantee MAY be affected. Nobody says, that guarantee WILL be rejected. 2-stroke oil in its properties is not an additive, as you add oil to oil if you "dope" you fuel with a dosis of 2-stroke oil. The dosis of 2-stroke oil in your diesel-fuel is very difficult to analyse, as every (chemical) analysis has the main function to identify substances which are harmful. But 2-stroke oil has proven not to be harmful at all, on the contrary!
Personally, I use 2-stroke oil now for many years in all of my diesel cars (my present business car is a Mercedes 320 cdi DPF Automatic). And I never had any problems whatsoever.
YF
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Goldstone69
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 403
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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 6:17 pm
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yamaha-fan wrote:Why our car manufacturers do not officially allow the homoeophatic addition of 2-stroke oil to the diesel fuel has many reasons, mostly of legal nature Besides this, which car manufacturer has any interest in excessive reliability of their engines? Their repair shops will have great problems.
Meanwhile the "2-stroke-oil to diesel" issue has attracted the interest of a number of Universities in Germany, as this 2-stroke oil has shown to have amazing poperties if added in a small dosis to diesel fuel (1:200), especially the positive impact on air pollution, reduced fuel consumption and improved long term reliability of the diesel engine. The pro and con discussions will go on for a while. But as soon as an accademic report has been published by one of our Universities, this will change very fast.
YF
Thankyou YF for your usual thorough and knowledgeable reply.....
Quote: mostly of legal nature
could you expand on this please ?
Quote:as soon as an accademic report has been published by one of our Universities, this will change very fast.
Do you know when this is likely too happen ?
Thanks
GS69
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mburton2
Joined: 02 Nov 2007
Posts: 177
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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 6:27 pm
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yamaha-fan wrote:We are all aware that the TD4 engine is a cooperation between Peugeot and Ford, and Peugeot demands motor oil for their TD4 of a much higher quality than Ford. How come?
Yamaha-Fan
PSA wanted to use a LOWER quality oil in the DW12 Engine....Ford inisted in the better quality, as it increased MPG (Amongst other things)
Some of the information you have there is not "Correct"
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 7:18 am
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Goldstone69: I am not allowed to detail the legal reasons but think of warranty issues between part manufacturer and car manufacturer.
The two Universities which are conducting professional tests (in the laboratory and on the road) will require approx. 6 months to be able to produce a reliable documentation. Meanwhile the students have been requested to add 2-stroke oil to their diesel and to report their experience by filling in questionaires.
mburton2: I do not know your source of information. The Ford norm 913B as recommended by Landrover for our Freely 2 has a reduced HTHS value, that means a reduced shearing stability in order to reduce the diesel consumption. Why Ford/Landrover have chosen this route I do not know, and engine-engineers I have spoken to confirm that a reduced HTHS value is exactly what should be avoided in modern engines. The oil industry spends a lot of money in research work to increase the HTHS value of motor oils by restructuring the molecular chain of the oil. And yes, it is a fact that a high HTHS value does have an impact on fuel consumption. But what is better: burning your motor oil with lots of soot everywhere and thereby damaging your engine and your DPF (soot particle filter) if you use motor oil with low HTHS value, or using the best motor oil you can get with a high HTHS value, therby keeping your engine well greased, clean and healthy at the cost of slightly higher fuel consumption, if any.To be frank, I cannot understand this discussion at all: all reputed car manufacturers do recommend or even demand the use of motor oils with a specific (high) HTHS value, and have developed their own norm like Mercedes, BMW, Audi and VW, and also Peugeot (PSA) to make sure that you use the appropriate motor oil. Only Ford and Landrover seem to have never heard about this and still recommend motor oils which, to put it mildy, will serve its purpose, but for how long?
YF
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Goldstone69
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 403
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 10:36 am
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yamaha-fan wrote:Goldstone69: I am not allowed to detail the legal reasons but think of warranty issues between part manufacturer and car manufacturer.
The two Universities which are conducting professional tests (in the laboratory and on the road) will require approx. 6 months to be able to produce a reliable documentation. Meanwhile the students have been requested to add 2-stroke oil to their diesel and to report their experience by filling in questionaires.
YF
Thanks for the reply i will probably wait until reports are published and research a bit more myself before adding any 2-stroke to the diesel. I`m sure you will keep us updated on any new developments.
GS69
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 2:43 pm
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One quick addition: if we speak of 2-stroke oil to be added to the diesel fuel it MUST be a 2-stroke oil of low ash content, such as Liqui Moly No. 1052 (1 liter bottle) or Meguin semi synthetic. NEVER use fully synthetic 2-stroke oil, besides the cost). 2-stroke oil has very similar chemical properties as diesel oil, and this is the reason why diesel and 2-stroke oil do not mix but compound (if I have used the right word). Once diesel and 2-stroke oil have chemically compounded, you cannot seperate them again.
2-stroke oil will increase the OZ-value (Oktan) of diesel oil by 3 to 5 points (OZ=x*OZ("2-T oil) + (1-x)* OZ (diesel fuel)). 2-stroke oil does not contain any Zinc-components, and metal-organic additives are virtually absent. This is the main reason why 2-stroke oil burnes cleaner than diesel oil.
You can (theoretically) run a diesel engine with 100% 2-stroke oil with no harm. Behind closed doors tests of reputed car manufacturers have shown that a dosis of 1:200 is the quantitiy of 2-stroke oil to be added to the diesel fuel to achieve the wanted results. I have personally witnessed the running in of re-build/repaired diesel engines with a dosis of 1 litre of 2-stroke oil in the fuel to be mechanically on the safe side.
YF
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defkalion
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 345
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Posted: 19th Nov 2007 5:42 pm
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Yamaha-Fan, I always admire your scientific replies!
One more question for you my friend: As you said diesel in some countries may not be as clean/proper as in some others. I'm afraid that Greece is amogst them. In such cases, is 2-stroke oil addition still recommended?
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 7:30 am
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Hello Defkalion,
you may have noticed that I am very interested in oils and its derivates as long as this relates to cars.
I am not a chemist or engineer, only a lawyer who works mostly for the car and oil industry, and in this capacitiy I hear, read and negotiate many technical issues. I have specialized in international contracting and its applicable laws incl. warranty and guarantee issues.
To come back to your question: a clear YES!
You can improve the negative impacts of burning minor fuel (diesel) by adding 2-stroke oil (2T oil), thereby increasing the Oktan value by 3-5 points, and reducing the soot to a very large extent (in the range of 50%). Our TD4 diesel engines do have a turbo loader driven by the diesel exhaust fumes. Such fumes do contain soot and mineral particles. Such soot will (also) deposit on the turbo-blades and its bearings and slowly, slowly reduce its function. You can delay this considerably by adding 2T-oil to the diesel, which will reduce the soot deposit considerably. Mercedes in its engine research centre have conducted extensive tests with extremely positive results. As per my information, such tests have not been conducted to prove the capabilities of 2T-oil but to test various alloys with regard to mechanical stability under high pressure, rotation and heat. One of such test has been conducted with the addition of 2T-oil, and the turbo blades came out of this test virtually clean.
Two of our Technical Universities have recognised, among others, the positive impact on air pollution by adding 2T-oil to the diesel fuel and their research work is in progress.
YF
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 10:29 am
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yamaha-fan wrote:
thereby increasing the Oktan value by 3-5 points, and reducing the soot to a very large extent (in the range of 50%).
I assume you ment cetane ? (sorry, no heptane as I wrote first)
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Tim in Scotland
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 761
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 5:02 pm
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I think in the UK if you got stopped in a Highways Agency roadside check you might also have a problem with the Revenue Man if you added 2 stroke oil to diesel They used to get very worked up if you added winter additive to prevent waxing of diesel
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defkalion
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 345
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 5:48 pm
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Tim, if I understand correctly from what YF says, 2-stroke oil cannot be traced in diesel as it desolves (or something like that). I guess if 2-stroke oil has so much to offer to your car (reliability, cleaner burning, better consumption) with no harm done, then why not use it? I wander what additives diesel plus/extra/etc (which is more expensive) has? It could be a 1/200 portion of 2-stroke oil...
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jimmy
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 300
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 6:07 pm
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good point Def.
Is that how bad it's got in the UK - that you can be stopped and have your fuel checked ?
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Tim in Scotland
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 761
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 6:14 pm
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Yes it has and yes the vehicle inspectorate are ruthless in trying to track misuse, because people who use tax free fuel (Red Diesel) have been trying to fleece the tax payers here by using fuel meant for tractors and fishing boats in their cars or worse, selling it! There is hardly a week goes by (especially on market days!) when the inspectors are not stopping any vehicle that might be a farm vehicle and taking fuel samples. If the government reduced the taxation on fuel then people wouldn't need to defraud the revenue!
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jimmy
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 300
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Posted: 20th Nov 2007 6:27 pm
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But if you are stopped - then your fuel will not be red anyway.
Also - there are different varieties of diesel (standard, extra..) plus (as Def says) you may have used an additive bought at the garage - meaning there must be a wide band of "acceptable" diesels as far as the Inspectors are concerned.
Plus you can show your legit receipts.........
Anyway - not really an issue for me.................... 
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 7:30 am
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Well, what Tim says is correct. The same in Germany, as diesel fuel used by the farming-industry or in any household as fuel for their central heating is reduced in tax. So what they do to identify this "reduced tax fuel" is to color it red. Even the slightest hint of this read color in your diesel car tank will bring you in trouble with regard to tax evasion.
But 2-T oil is not tracable in your fuel at all and it has the same color as diesel. You should first fill in the 330 ccl of 2-T oil in your tank and then fill up with diesel. One of my friends is a judge in a High Court and he drives only cars with diesel engines. After some problems with his injection pumps I advised him to use 2-T oil, which he has heard, but -as most of this forum members- he has been reluctant to do for legal reasons.
After I have shown him the Mercedes DVD as documentation of the Paris-Beijing marathon, and after he has listened to the explanation of adding 2-T oil to all cars for reliability reasons, he wanted to know details.
I have handed over to him my car keys and encuraged him to start and drive my car in comparison to his Mercedes. What he immediately noticed was the absence of diesel-engine hammering when cold, and the quietness of the engine in general in comparison to his engine. So guess what he does now! And he regrets that he did not do this much earlier.
YF
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CK
Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 14
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 11:53 am
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YF, a question if I may,
Would it be ok to use Shell Advance VSX2 2 stroke semi-synthetic oil for this purpose?
I also came across Shell Advance Scooter 2, would that do the trick too?
Any preference between the two?
Cheers,
CK
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 12:22 pm
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You are most welcome, CK.
I would use any of the two 2-T oils, whichever I would get cheaper.
You can also use the Mobil Extra 2T.
Important is, that those 2T-oils should comply with JASCO "FC" or ISO L-E "GC" or "GD", which should be written on the bottle. All 2T-oils as per these norms burn with an ash content of less than 0,05%.
YF
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jimmy
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 300
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 1:48 pm
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CK wrote:YF, a question if I may,
Would it be ok to use Shell Advance VSX2 2 stroke semi-synthetic oil for this purpose?
I also came across Shell Advance Scooter 2, would that do the trick too?
Any preference between the two?
Cheers,
CK
Hi CK,
I used Shell Advance VSX2 2 stroke semi-synthetic (0.5 ltr not 0.33 ltr - woops !) - and everything is fine so far as I can tell. The engine runs quieter from starting up, compared to using the normal diesel. I got my girlfriend to rev the engine & I looked at the exhaust gasses before and after adding the 2 stroke oil. Before there was some (not much actually) colouration being light brown / grey. Afterwards - I'm hard pressed to see anything. Maybe I'm hearing and seeing things - but I don't think so.
br jimmy
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CK
Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 14
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 4:05 pm
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YF,
One more oil check please... 
I found a cheaper 2 stroke oil in a local esso station, it is called "esso special 2T".
The bottle reads it complies with JASO FC, ISO E-GC, E-GD.
Is that good enough? It didn't have the ISO L-E as you mentioned.
Cheers,
CK
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 6:43 am
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Yes, absolutely no objection.
Mobile Extra 2-T and Esso Special 2-T are the same.
YF
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wildrover
Joined: 31 Aug 2007
Posts: 109
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 5:39 pm
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CK
Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 14
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2007 3:33 am
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Hi all,
Couple of observations after using 2T oil with the last two tanks...
1) Don't know if the start-up itself is any smoother as it used to start nicely before, but it is definetly much quieter, especially in the mornings with cold starts.
2) Engine is running significantly quieter, especially in the 1500-1800 rpm range where it used to be a little flat and more on the noisy side when stuck in traffic going up hill. In fact, engine is so quiet now across the board that now I can hear some irritating noises coming from the driver's B pillar... guess its time to take it apart...
3) Couldn't see any difference in smoke, no noticeable smoke before and no smoke after.
4) Not 100% sure, but exhaust seems to smell a little different, more like the old diesel used to smell. It might be just because I actually tried to smell it now, so maybe just psychological (or Tesco's diesel that I put in last time).
5) Too early to tell if there is any mpg impact, but its certainly not worse than before. There is probably a slight improvement, but I can't contribute that to either or both the 2T oil or the engine breaking in.
To me the benefits right now seems at least as having a quieter and smoother engine, which is probaly worth it on its on. I will have to wait and see the effect on engine or turbo blades wear in 80k, but so far so good.
Seems like I'll keep adding 300ml of 2T oil every refill.
Next on the to do list is an oil change at 2000 miles. Maybe I'm being old fashioned, but I just can't think of letting a new engine run with the same oil for 15000 miles 
Anyone in the UK tried bringing his/her own oil for the dealer to use?
When I was in the US, my Mazda dealer actualy refused to use the oil I provided, even though it met all necessary Mazda standards.
Cheers,
CK
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chrisaviss
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 43
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2007 11:32 pm
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CK - I changed engine lube on my auto for Castrol 'Edge' a couple of k miles ago (@6k). Surprisingly, fuel consumption has improved already by >6%. Engine starts better (and quieter) and is also more quiet when running, especially in town when engine up to temp.
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chrisaviss
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 43
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2007 11:33 pm
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...and my friendly dealer did it with their usual friendliness.
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Dave Wilkin
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 67
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Posted: 9th Dec 2007 5:57 pm
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Hi,
Which grade of oil did you change to:
-Castrol Edge Turbo Diesel 5W40
-Castrol Edge TD 0W30
-Castrol Edge Formula RS 0W40
I ask because I do not want to run the risk of running my FL2 for 15k miles from new before an oil change.
Dave
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chrisaviss
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 43
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Posted: 9th Dec 2007 6:56 pm
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David
Castrol Edge Formula RS 0W40 is the one I chose.
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chrisaviss
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 43
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Posted: 9th Dec 2007 7:00 pm
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....but the "Edge" costs about the same as gin, maybe more!
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Dave Wilkin
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 67
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Posted: 10th Dec 2007 12:18 am
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Back in the late sixties/early seventies Castrol R was used in the prody racers and gave you the squits, I have to assume Castrol Edge Formula RS 0W40 will do the same so I doubt whether I will be adding this to my tonic 
Thanks
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 11th Dec 2007 12:11 pm
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Excellent oil, the only fully synthetic motor oil suitable for diesel engines with DPF!
YF
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geoff239
Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 15
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Posted: 12th Dec 2007 5:31 pm
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back to the 2t oil i put some in my old p38 range rover last night . engine a lot quieter on starting .usually slow starting but fired straight away, no cloud of smoke and soot . am getting my freelander 2 tomorrow will definitely think of putting it in that . yf keep up your informative posts.
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RW
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 84
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Posted: 12th Dec 2007 8:20 pm
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Quick question for yamaha-fan and others using 2T oil.
Do you add the the 2T oil before you fill the tank or can it be added after filling up at the station?
Thanks.
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defkalion
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 345
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Posted: 13th Dec 2007 6:47 am
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Hi RW, I would first add the 2-T oil and then fill up so that the two disolve properly. However, YF is the expert!
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 13th Dec 2007 6:59 am
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Hi RW,
as Defkalion alraedy said, put in the dosis of 2T-oil first and then fill up with diesel so that the 2T-oil is sufficiently dissolved in the fuel.
I am fladdened by your appreciation of my posts and I thank you very much. I promise to keep all of you up-dated on any developments.
YF
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defkalion
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 345
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Posted: 13th Dec 2007 7:58 am
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Do that YF, I hope your next post will be THE method for 70% fuel saving (you know adding a bit of banana and apple juice)... Keep up the good work mate! 
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vafree2
Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 28
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Posted: 13th Dec 2007 8:30 am
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Is the catalysed Diesel Particulate Filter installed by default on the diesels or is it an option (on the brochure it is checked as an option). And if not installed, can the 2-T still be used?
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defkalion
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 345
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Posted: 13th Dec 2007 8:43 am
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Hi Vafree2, c-DPF is an option in some countries and standard in others (eg Germany). You may use 2-T oil in either case. How's the vibrations going? (what a question, eh?) Put some 2-T oil and see if it makes a difference!
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vafree2
Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 28
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Posted: 13th Dec 2007 9:27 am
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Thanks defkalion on the reply. By the way the vibrations are still on !!, I am switching to N whenever on traffic lights I beleive that YF is correct , it should be related to the gearbox oil and the 2-T will not help.
I will still add the 2-T though, waiting for the tank to empty, and post a reply on the results...
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Sam
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 41
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Posted: 15th Dec 2007 5:22 pm
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My local garage owner reckons redex for diesels has a high percentage of two stroke!
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scotster
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 240
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Posted: 28th Dec 2007 12:58 pm
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Just a quick Q. to see if I can save money. I guess the cost of adding 0.3L of 2 stroke every fill up adds up quickly!
I don't have the DPF so from what I have read I don't need to worry so much about ash content.
All the 2-Stroke oils mentioned to date in this thread fall into the low ash content ( I think) and I guess are more expensive?
Does anyone have a recommendation for a cheaper 2-stroke for engines without DPF?
Yamaha Fan, what standards should be looking for please out of the JASCO 'FC', ISO L-E.......list?
Thanks!
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 31st Dec 2007 1:00 pm
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Hi Scotster
agreed, the addition of 2-T oil to the diesel will cost a few Euro per fill. BUT - your fuel consumption will go down by approx. 5%, so you will compensate here. Besides this, the chances that your diesel engine and turbo charger will give you many years of trouble free operation are very good. So I would NOT use synthetic 2-T oil but any mineral or half synthetic 2-T oil will do. Use the cheapest you can get locally. And don't forget: with addidtion of 2-T oil you reduce the production of sod considerably, and you can take your part in the prevention of air pullution, if you like.
YF
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scotster
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 240
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Posted: 1st Jan 2008 4:18 pm
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builder.
Where did you see that? I haven't done any shopping around and am just trialling the idea with £6.50 (€8.85) 1 Litre bottle from Halfords. Around €3 per fill but Halfords is not know for being cheap
It is Castrol Power1 Scooter 2T. Complies with API TC; JASCO FD; ISO EGD.
It's probably mineral oil as it would say if it was semi synthetic, and it doesn't.
The price you have found looks good as long as it's up to the job! YF will no doubt advise.
By the way YF. A 1:200 ratio on a 68 Litre Diesel tank is 0.34 L.
Not that it's easy to pour the stuff to that accuracy!
Thanks again.
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RW
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 84
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Posted: 1st Jan 2008 8:00 pm
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builder, please post the web address again as there was no link in your last post. Cheers.
scotster, have used the Castrol Power1 Scooter 2T from Halfords with the last 2 tank fills. I used the markings on the container to approximate 330mls (about 1/3rd of 1L). Have definitely noticed an improvement in the mileage (about 2miles/gallon on the average) and diesel clatter dies down sooner after a cold start. No ill effects so far. 
TESCO do a cheap 2T oil, but it is JASO FB - so haven't used it. B&Q do mineral and semi-synthetic 2T oils, but need to check their JASO/ISO rating.
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav/nav.jsp?...id=9219171
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builder
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 107
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Posted: 1st Jan 2008 8:03 pm
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RW
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 84
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Posted: 1st Jan 2008 8:32 pm
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builder
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 107
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Posted: 1st Jan 2008 8:39 pm
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RW wrote:thanks builder for the link!
Here is another one for you....
http://www.lm-spares.co.uk/acatalog/Two_Stroke_Motul_Oil.html
This seller gives free UK delivery, but prices are ex-VAT.
Has yamaha-fan approved it?
Thats a good link RW depends how much you buy at a time as to which is the cheapest link. Paying the VAT or the postage.
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2008 7:57 am
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The JASCO rating is only important for 2-stroke engines and if your diesel engine has a DPF, as the ash content of the 2-T oil should not exceed 0,2 Vol-%. But if you do not have a DPF things are much easier, and your choice of 2-T oils may be guided by the best price you have to pay for the product.
As the 2-T oil is produced in Europe only by a very limited number of manufacturers, most of the 2-T oils on the market are sold under brand names, but the product itself is the same.
So go ahead with your purchases and hunt for the best price you can get.
YF
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builder
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 107
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2008 5:07 pm
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Thanks very much YF, I will now buy stocks with confidence ready for when I take delivery.
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scotster
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 240
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2008 5:11 pm
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Builder.
I just ordered mine from LM spares as it works out cheaper at £17-61 v £19 at the other site. Postage there was a fiver.
Good find! I let you know if my engine explodes.
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builder
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 107
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2008 5:17 pm
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Nice one scotster.
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nickkuts
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 54
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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 5:02 pm
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Hallo Yamaha Fan
I was impressed by the idea of adding 2T oil into diesel fuel.
I did add the precise portion in my Octavia II 2.0 TDI-PD with DPF and there was noticable niose reduction on cold start.
There is a side effect though....There is additional noise and vibrations at engine shut down, which was not present before.
Does that formula work on TDI-PD engines or not?
I am waiting for my FL 2 in February and intended to apply the formula to it....though there is a hesitation after trying it to my recent engine....
Please give advice!
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jimmy
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 300
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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 5:46 pm
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yamaha-fan wrote:You are most welcome, CK.
I would use any of the two 2-T oils, whichever I would get cheaper.
You can also use the Mobil Extra 2T.
Important is, that those 2T-oils should comply with JASCO "FC" or ISO L-E "GC" or "GD", which should be written on the bottle. All 2T-oils as per these norms burn with an ash content of less than 0,05%.
YF
Hi YF,
I use Shell Advance VSX2 2 stroke semi-synthetic. It complies with "JASO-FC" - but does not refer to "JASCO-FC".
Any problems with using this 2T oil ?
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RW
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 84
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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 9:05 pm
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jimmy wrote:
I use Shell Advance VSX2 2 stroke semi-synthetic. It complies with "JASO-FC" - but does not refer to "JASCO-FC".
Any problems with using this 2T oil ?
JASCO must have been a typo - JASO is what he means.
JASO = Japanese Automotive Standards Organization
More info on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JASO_FC
Hence, going by previous posts by YF, Shell Advance VSX 2-stroke semi-synthetic oil would be alright to use, though probably more expensive than other mineral oils on the market.
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defkalion
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 345
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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 9:58 pm
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Hi Nickkuts, have you added 2-t oil with low ash content as recommended by YF? Vehicles with DPF should only use that
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nickkuts
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 54
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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 10:14 pm
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defkalion wrote:Hi Nickkuts, have you added 2-t oil with low ash content as recommended by YF? Vehicles with DPF should only use that
I did as advised by YF, but there is extra noise and vibrations...i presume this has to do with pumpe-duse system of the engine.
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 7:36 am
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Nickkuts,
if you use 2-T oil on older diesel engines it will remove the soot-deposits in the engine (valves, injectors, turbo blades) due to the cleaning effect of 2-T oil. This will lead to vibration and some more noise for a few days until the soot deposits are removed. This confirms the capabilities of 2-T oil, and once your soot deposits are flushed away your engine will run noticably better.
However, if your engine has mechanical defects which are "hidden" by the soot deposit, than you should consult your trusted workshop.
2-T oil can safely be used on "pumpe duese" diesel engines too, but as I said, such pdi-engines should not be too old or with too large milage.
On new and modern diesel engines, particularely our TD4, the 2-T oil will work fine with amazing results.
YF
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nickkuts
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 54
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 8:14 am
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yamaha-fan wrote:Nickkuts,
if you use 2-T oil on older diesel engines it will remove the soot-deposits in the engine (valves, injectors, turbo blades) due to the cleaning effect of 2-T oil. This will lead to vibration and some more noise for a few days until the soot deposits are removed. This confirms the capabilities of 2-T oil, and once your soot deposits are flushed away your engine will run noticably better.
However, if your engine has mechanical defects which are "hidden" by the soot deposit, than you should consult your trusted workshop.
2-T oil can safely be used on "pumpe duese" diesel engines too, but as I said, such pdi-engines should not be too old or with too large milage.
On new and modern diesel engines, particularely our TD4, the 2-T oil will work fine with amazing results.
YF
Thanks YF
What do you mean by old? My 2.0 TDI-PD is manufactured in 2000 and has 70000km. on it.
Is that considered old?
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 2:29 pm
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In todays fast changing world 7 years are indeed "old" with regard to technical standards and developments.
I would in your case and for your diesel engine start with a high dosis of 2-T oil of 1 litre per tank fill to speed-up the cleaning of the soot deposit. What makes me wonder is that you say that your Audi diesel engine has already a (closed circuit?) DPF. As per my information factory DPF fitted diesel engines have not been on the market in the year 2000.
So I assume that you have fitted an aftermarket (open) DPF . As this open system does not clean itself by burning the soot by means of the motor management system, I would advise you NOT to use 2-T oil on your
engine. If I should be wrong and you really do have a closed circuit DPF in your car, than you may proceed as above.
In case you should NOT have any DPF, than things are much easier, and you can proceed as above.
YF
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nickkuts
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 54
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 2:51 pm
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yamaha-fan wrote:In todays fast changing world 7 years are indeed "old" with regard to technical standards and developments.
I would in your case and for your diesel engine start with a high dosis of 2-T oil of 1 litre per tank fill to speed-up the cleaning of the soot deposit. What makes me wonder is that you say that your Audi diesel engine has already a (closed circuit?) DPF. As per my information factory DPF fitted diesel engines have not been on the market in the year 2000.
So I assume that you have fitted an aftermarket (open) DPF . As this open system does not clean itself by burning the soot by means of the motor management system, I would advise you NOT to use 2-T oil on your
engine. If I should be wrong and you really do have a closed circuit DPF in your car, than you may proceed as above.
In case you should NOT have any DPF, than things are much easier, and you can proceed as above.
YF
I do apologise YF .
Manufature year is 2005 not 2000! It was the new volkswagen diesel engine... It's my mistake!
And it came with factory fit DPF.
Thank you though!
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 3:05 pm
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Than you may go ahead as discribed.
Please inform of your experience.
YF
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Sam
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 41
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Posted: 8th Jan 2008 2:04 pm
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YF
You have said a couple of times not to use fully synthetic. Is this just because of the price. I have a litre or so and don't want to throw it away
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 8th Jan 2008 7:13 pm
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Sam, for two reasons:
1. the price
2. if you should have a DPF, the ash content of sythetic 2-T oils is higher, as this oil is ment to burn.
YF
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efthys
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 42
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Posted: 13th Jan 2008 7:47 am
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YF I found some Esso 2t mineral oil JASO FB can i used it.
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nickkuts
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 54
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Posted: 13th Jan 2008 3:19 pm
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yamaha-fan wrote:
Meanwhile the "2-stroke-oil to diesel" issue has attracted the interest of a number of Universities in Germany, as this 2-stroke oil has shown to have amazing poperties if added in a small dosis to diesel fuel (1:200), especially the positive impact on air pollution, reduced fuel consumption and improved long term reliability of the diesel engine. The pro and con discussions will go on for a while. But as soon as an accademic report has been published by one of our Universities, this will change very fast.
YF
YF,
Are there any official publications from these universities?
Or when are they due to appear?
Regards
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rover60
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 205
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Posted: 15th Jan 2008 9:53 pm
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HI Yamaha-Fan If you ran the car on 5% bio diesel would that give you the same effect as the 2 Stroke as in the cleaning.As bio diesel is a mild solvent to clean the engine and the oil properties in vegetable oil for the lubrication?
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wildrover
Joined: 31 Aug 2007
Posts: 109
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 6:30 am
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scotster wrote:Builder.
I just ordered mine from LM spares as it works out cheaper at £17-61 v £19 at the other site. Postage there was a fiver.
Good find! I let you know if my engine explodes.
Any feedback with the results so far Scotster and was the website ok?
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scotster
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 240
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 10:28 am
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Hi wildrover.
Well it didn't blow up yet!
Unfortunately I don't drive the car much (the wife does) so the noise at start up is hard for me to judge objectively. I would say it is quieter but it could be the power of suggestion doing that.
Certainly haven't seen plumes of blue smoke and no idea on mpg as I don't track it......so I'm not much help really.
I can say the website delivered in 5 days and the oil doesn't have any standard markings on apart from that to confirm that its mineral 2 stroke oil. I haven't used this cheaper 2 stroke oil yet as I am still finishing off the castrol.
I guess with the cheap stuff you are saving a massive £1 a fill up versus buying for example the castrol. I originally bought at around £6 per bottle. As I only fill up around twice a month I may eventually go back to the more expensive variety when I have used up my cheap stuff (in about a year!) for piece of mind. Probably a quid a fill wasted..but hey ho.
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 6:40 pm
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Sorry guys, I have been on a longer business trip to India and only returned today.
To answer the 2 questions:
No, there are no official reports from the testing Universities yet. The tests are scheduled for 6 to 9 months, so the best what will be available are intermediate reports. I will enquire and find out what the present status is.
Bio diesel is chemically very agressive, that is the reason why the mix with normal diesel is limited to 5% (at the moment). Bio diesel does not grease better than normal diesel, so the addition of the recommended dosis 2-T oil is the right thing to do.
By the way, our Mercedes A-Class 180 cdi is driven with 2-T oil from day 1, and the bi-annually check-up by the TUV (Technical Verification Authoritiy) has shown during the exhaust-fume test that the allowable limits are more than 30% lower. The Test-Engineer could not believe it and has repeated the test as he thought that the test instrument had a defect.
But it didn't.
YF
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geoff239
Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 15
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 7:20 pm
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yf im just a little confused , you say to use jasco fc or above , these are usually semi synthetic ,but i see a couple of people putting mineral oil in .when ive looked these all seem to be jasco fb. are these ok.
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efthys
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 42
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 7:21 pm
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YF I found some Esso 2t mineral oil JASO FB can i used it.
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nickkuts
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 54
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 8:47 pm
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Bio diesel is chemically very agressive, that is the reason why the mix with normal diesel is limited to 5% (at the moment). Bio diesel does not grease better than normal diesel, so the addition of the recommended dosis 2-T oil is the right thing to do.
YF[/quote]
This is a site i came accross...you might find it interesting though contoversial....
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 20th Jan 2008 10:43 am
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Hi geoff239 and efthys,
for both of you - yes, you can use it.
Geoff239, please read my comments carefully: I said that the TD4 with DPF (diesel particulate filter) should loook for a 2-T oil with the lowest ash content you can find. The ash content is defined by the Jasco norm (besides others). So if you do not have a DPF your choice of 2-T oil is only restricted by the price, as 2-T oil in general burnes cleaner than diesel.
For diesel engines with DPF the semi-synthetic Liqui Moli no. 1052 has proved to be the most suitable product.
YF
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geoff239
Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 15
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Posted: 20th Jan 2008 11:05 am
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yf thanks for the reply ,understand everything now .
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builder
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
Posts: 107
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Posted: 20th Jan 2008 12:14 pm
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nickkuts wrote:Bio diesel is chemically very agressive, that is the reason why the mix with normal diesel is limited to 5% (at the moment). Bio diesel does not grease better than normal diesel, so the addition of the recommended dosis 2-T oil is the right thing to do.
YF
nickkuts wrote.
This is a site i came accross...you might find it interesting though contoversial....
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728[/quote]
Hi YF. Have you tried the above web site shown in nikkuts post. If so what are your thoughts
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 21st Jan 2008 12:11 pm
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Thank you for this link, which I did not know but found very interesting.
As general remark I can conclude that in value for money terms the 2-T oil is the clear winner.
Interesting is, that the ratio of adding 2-T oil with 200:1 has been equal of what is recommended by myself.
Interesting is further, that the addition of (used) motor oil (no. 13) to the diesel brings no benefit at all.
The tested additiv numbers 1-9 (no. 7 is 2-T oil) bring improvements (wear-reduction) between 415 and 162 micron. But look at the prices for such additives! The most ecconomical is the 2-T oil!
The results of the tested bio-diesel do not allow a general compliance with all bio-diesel on the market world-wide, as the results have to be limited to the feed-stock (here: soya-been) of the tested bio-diesel. Further, the used process of converting soya been into bio diesel should have been reported. Any other feed-stock such as corn, cassava, grain, coco-nut etc. will bring different results and reactions.
As a conclusion I may say that the Americans did an interesting comparison here, even though not reproducable in general. What is clearly reproducable is the performance of 2-T oil.
YF
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nickkuts
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 54
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Posted: 21st Jan 2008 3:14 pm
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yamaha-fan wrote:Thank you for this link, which I did not know but found very interesting.
As general remark I can conclude that in value for money terms the 2-T oil is the clear winner.
Interesting is, that the ratio of adding 2-T oil with 200:1 has been equal of what is recommended by myself.
Interesting is further, that the addition of (used) motor oil (no. 13) to the diesel brings no benefit at all.
The tested additiv numbers 1-9 (no. 7 is 2-T oil) bring improvements (wear-reduction) between 415 and 162 micron. But look at the prices for such additives! The most ecconomical is the 2-T oil!
The results of the tested bio-diesel do not allow a general compliance with all bio-diesel on the market world-wide, as the results have to be limited to the feed-stock (here: soya-been) of the tested bio-diesel. Further, the used process of converting soya been into bio diesel should have been reported. Any other feed-stock such as corn, cassava, grain, coco-nut etc. will bring different results and reactions.
As a conclusion I may say that the Americans did an interesting comparison here, even though not reproducable in general. What is clearly reproducable is the performance of 2-T oil.
YF
It will be interesting to see the University studies publications....since 2 microne improvement from 2T oil is vertually zerro improvement....
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Sam
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 41
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Posted: 21st Jan 2008 3:44 pm
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2T was 162 microns, no?
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nickkuts
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 54
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Posted: 21st Jan 2008 4:05 pm
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Sam wrote:2T was 162 microns, no?
Yes Sam,
My mistake....162 makes sence....
I will take my FL2 in february and have packed some 2T oil!
Regards YF!
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wildrover
Joined: 31 Aug 2007
Posts: 109
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Posted: 21st Jan 2008 6:15 pm
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but what about the dieselplace.com comment...
(Not ULSD compliant, may damage 2007 or newer systems)
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nickkuts
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 54
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Posted: 21st Jan 2008 6:22 pm
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wildrover wrote:but what about the dieselplace.com comment...
(Not ULSD compliant, may damage 2007 or newer systems)
I sounds a bit disturbing....FL2 engine is 2006, isn't it? If that's reassuring....
What is ULSD?
What could be damaged?
Please anyone share adequate knowledge ...
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2008 6:58 am
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One more comment from my side: the refered comparison test does not consider the production (or better: reduction) of soot in the exhaust fume. The test was aimed at wear reduction only. If soot would have been a factor, the 2-T oil would have been the hands-on winner. But this is my personal opinion and conclusion.
The other additives are at least in Germany not on the market (under those brand names).
Annother point is, that diesel fuel in Germany and Europe must comply with DIN or equivalent standards, which are not known in the USA, as diesel passenger cars or SUV are not on the market.
The remark in the test that 2007 or newer diesel engines may show a regative reaction on certain additives does not apply here in Europe. Our TD4 are considered to be 2007 and younger engines, and the plastic components for example in the diesel tank, fuel meter, fuel pump, diesel filter, fuel pipes etc. are compliant with todays modern fuel. But the car and parts manufacturer stay on the safe side by presently allowing the addition of bio diesel only up to 5%, even though internal test have shown that no negative effects have incurred with a mix of bio diesel of up to 15-20%. But long term tests are not available, and until such long term test have been conducted and completed, the bio diesel limit will be 5%. But all car manufacturers reject the addition of fuel additives in general, probably for good reasons. But 2-T oil is not considered to represent an additive (in legal terms), as its chemical structure is very similar to diesel oil. This has meanwhile been confirmed by higher courts in Germany (and I firmly believe that this may be applicable also for the EC).
YF
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nickkuts
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 54
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Posted: 26th Jan 2008 12:54 pm
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yamaha-fan wrote: But 2-T oil is not considered to represent an additive (in legal terms), as its chemical structure is very similar to diesel oil. This has meanwhile been confirmed by higher courts in Germany (and I firmly believe that this may be applicable also for the EC).
YF
That's quite interesting....Why this issue was brought to court in Germany?...a warranty claim? could you elaborate on it? And the decision is valid through out Europe without being confirmed from EC Court?
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RW
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 84
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Posted: 26th Jan 2008 3:44 pm
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I find that most 2T oils in the market are coloured red. I presume it is done so that mixed fuel for 2T engines will look different to unmixed fuel.
Would this red colouring cause suspicion of red diesel use?
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 27th Jan 2008 10:41 am
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ULSD means "ultra low sulphur diesel", which is very new in the USA, but which is meanwhile standard in Western Europe for some time now.
2007 and newer engines again is only valid for the USA, as only in 2007 USL-diesel has been introduced to the USA, and the diesel engines sold in the US until than may not be compliant with this fuel. So all the remarks and qualifications are only valid for the USA, as the USA is years behind modern diesel-technology.
So our TD 4 engines are compliant with ULSD, at least up to 5% addition of bio diesel.
The 2-T oil used in the dieselplace comparison is a 2-T oil developed for motor boat engines, as 2-T oil for cars, motor sawers and lawn mowers etc. is not on the market in the USA due to non-availability of such engines for air pollution reasons. This special 2-T oil is different from the 2-T oil we speak of, and it is amazing that the results are quite good, which speak for the qualities of 2-T oil in general.
My remark that 2-T oil is not considered as an oil-additive is based on a number of higher court judgements.
As those judgements comply with EC-regulations, I assume that they may be valid in the EC, if any similar case should be presented to the EC-court. The cases I refer to are guarantee obligations of car manufacturers/repair shops which have been rejected under the reason of addition of oil-additives by the car-owner. The courts have clearly decided in favour of the consumer by arguing, that the car manufacturer could not prove to the courts that the default would not have happened if such oil additive would not have been added. Similarily, the courts have decided, that the oil-recommendations of car-manufacturers are considered to be the MINIMUM-requirements. Any better product can not perform worse than the minimum.
PS. In Germany, the 2-T oils are NOT coloured read. So I cannot provide a qualified answer to your question.
YF
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 31st Jan 2008 12:30 pm
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One more information to the interested reader when buying 2-T oil:
The "JASO" specification of 2-T oil means "Japan Automobile Standards Organisation"
JASO MA = for 4-stroke motorbike engines
JASO F = for 2-stroke motorbike engines
JASO FA = standard 2-T oil
JASO FB = low smoke
JASO FC = lowest smoke
For JASO F: the higher the letter behind the "F" the better the performance of the 2-T oil
For Europe, the equivalent of JASO is ISO:
ISO-L-EGB equals JASO F
ISO-L-EGC equals JASO FB
ISO-L-EGD equals JASO FC
YF
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nickkuts
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 54
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Posted: 15th Feb 2008 6:57 pm
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To Yamaha Fan
Can you update us on the results of the official researches conducted by the universitites?
Unfortunately i can't report any visible change neither in sound , nor in consumption of my 2.0 TDI-PD....
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Matei
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 782
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 10:33 am
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yamaha-fan wrote:One more information to the interested reader when buying 2-T oil:
The "JASO" specification of 2-T oil means "Japan Automobile Standards Organisation"
JASO MA = for 4-stroke motorbike engines
JASO F = for 2-stroke motorbike engines
JASO FA = standard 2-T oil
JASO FB = low smoke
JASO FC = lowest smoke
For JASO F: the higher the letter behind the "F" the better the performance of the 2-T oil
For Europe, the equivalent of JASO is ISO:
ISO-L-EGB equals JASO F
ISO-L-EGC equals JASO FB
ISO-L-EGD equals JASO FC
YF
Hello Yamaha - Fan,
I've just got my new Freelander 2 about 4 days ago and after I've read your comments I've decided to put 2 ST oil in the diesel.
Just one question. In Romania the diesel quality (even if it is branded as Euro 4 & 5) is not so great. Does this infuence the oil action ? I've put MOL Dynamic (JASCO FC) which I think should be in order.
Thanks
Matei
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wildrover
Joined: 31 Aug 2007
Posts: 109
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Posted: 18th Feb 2008 6:21 pm
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nickkuts wrote:To Yamaha Fan
Can you update us on the results of the official researches conducted by the universitites?
Unfortunately i can't report any visible change neither in sound , nor in consumption of my 2.0 TDI-PD....
Neither could I when i tried it with Putoline TT Light, but if it prevents failure of the fuel pump system etc due to the lubrication issues of ULSD, it sounds like a winner.
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 7:12 am
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Hi Matai
very wise decision. Particularely if the diesel quality is "questionable" you increase lubrication and keeping the engine clean from unwanted deposits besides much less production of soot if you add the dosis of 2-T oil to your fuel.
And the JASO FC 2-T oil you use is the right one!
YF
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 19th Feb 2008 7:27 am
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Hi Nickhuts
If you add 2-T oil to older diesel engines it will take some time until the soot and oil deposits are completely soaked and burned away.
So I advise that you add 2 or 3 times one full litre of 2-T oil to your fuel-tank to speed-up the cleaning of your engine components. Therafter you should indeed notice the effects of 2-T oil.
With regard to engine noise the PD engines of VW, Audi and Scoda are noisy due to its construction and operation principles, so noise reduction after adding 2-T oil may be difficult to notice. However, every other benefit remains.
YF
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Columbarius
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 10
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Posted: 22nd Feb 2008 10:10 am
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I've added a Poll asking members if, following this fascinating discussion, they've decided to start adding 2-T oil. And whether it works. I'm sure that we'll all be interested in your feedback. Thanks.
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Matei
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 782
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Posted: 20th May 2008 4:02 pm
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Seen that Yamaha Fan is back and as this was/is a very interesting thread thought to ask if there are any more news about the use of 2T oil. As I remmember there was a study undertaken by an University?
Any news?
I still use 2T oil and would be courious if there are some news.
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AndyH
Joined: 25 Feb 2008
Posts: 8
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Posted: 25th May 2008 4:47 pm
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Hi All,
Fasinated by this thread and am thinking about trying 2T in my Freelander 2. However I'm confused as to whether my Freelander has DPF or not. Where could I find this information? The Land Rover website suggests that DPF is fitted but I want to ensure.
For info, I bought mine new in May 2007 in the UK and it's an HSE model.
Any help appreciated 
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Matei
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 782
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Posted: 25th May 2008 5:34 pm
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AndyH wrote:Hi All,
Fasinated by this thread and am thinking about trying 2T in my Freelander 2. However I'm confused as to whether my Freelander has DPF or not. Where could I find this information? The Land Rover website suggests that DPF is fitted but I want to ensure.
For info, I bought mine new in May 2007 in the UK and it's an HSE model.
Any help appreciated
DPF fitted FL2 are normally more expensive than non DPF. I don't know how your car registration looks like but in mine thre is a mention abt the engine power. In mine (no DPF) it says 118 KW. Normally the DPF reduces the engine power with a couple of HP so if in your registration the engine power is less than the FL2 shoud have a DPF. I don,t remmeberexactly but there should also be a difference between the noxes output. You can check - if noted on your registration or car identity paper (don't know if in the UK you have one but over here this is the paper where the car owner history is registered and we are not required to have this one with us all the time). If you drive a lot in heavy city traffic and traffic jams then a DPF Full sign should come on the dashboard so if you saw one you have it. If you did not see one it does not mean that you do not have one as the DPF fitted is the sefcleanning type.
I would guess that if you look under the car and see something more than the normal exhaust on the evacuation then this is the DPF. As I don'thave one I have no ideea how it looks but I would guess that it's sort like a cylinder.
When you start the engine and theFL2 does the system check up (the one when all the airbag and othe signs light up) is there a DPF sign ?
I did put 2T oil in the diesel from day one and there have not been any adverse effects (only have abt 300 Km) but I think the engine oes run more quietly than other diesels. Cannot say abt better mpg as have put oil from the start.
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AndyH
Joined: 25 Feb 2008
Posts: 8
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Posted: 25th May 2008 5:44 pm
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Thanks for the reply, much appreciated. Just looked at my V5 document which lists all the car's specifications and registration details. The details are as follows:
Max Net Power: 118KW
CO (g/km or g/kWh): 0.085
NOx (g/km or g/kWh): 0.284
HC+NOx (g/km): 0.284
Particulates (g/km or g/kWh): 0.039
I assume from the above and your information that mine does NOT have DPF??
Anyone confirm?
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Matei
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 782
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Posted: 25th May 2008 6:20 pm
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You can chechk this for HP and noxes
http://www.discoverhybridcars.com/hybrid-c...in-germany
As you see the DPF engine output is given as 152 HP. I remember that non DPF have 158 HP so there should be a 3 or 4 KW difference. Check the noxes> I could not compare with what you gave.
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Dave
Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 1651
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Posted: 25th May 2008 7:01 pm
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I don't think the DPF filter is fitted as standard in the UK as it isn't required by law. me thinks it's an optional extra if you want to pay for it.
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albert frederik
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 37
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Posted: 4th Aug 2008 8:00 pm
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 5th Aug 2008 8:57 am
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Hello Albert,
very wise decision! You will not regret it. Your choice of 2-T oil is fine. Any 2-T oil which meets the JASO norm FB or FC will do. Buy the 2-T oil you can get at the best price.
Good luck
YF
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albert frederik
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 37
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Posted: 5th Aug 2008 7:21 pm
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Thank you YF,
just for fun, what would be your next car if you had to decide today to order a new car?
Regards Albert Frederik.
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 6th Aug 2008 4:08 pm
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You are most welcome, Albert.
If I have to buy a new SUV today, I would buy the new Mercedes GLK 220 cdi with 7speed automatic. I had the chance to test drive this car at the Mercedes works in Stuttgart , and I am fascinated. But the price....!
What disturbes me most on Landrover is their ignorance with regard to owner experience and their suggestions/recommendations, the non-availability of (spare) parts with endless waiting time, the very rare dealers/work-shops in Germany, and the blindness of Landrover towards proper oil-qualities for engines with DPF.
My next car (SUV) will definitely NOT be a Landrover!!!
Regards
Yamaha-Fan
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albert frederik
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 37
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Posted: 6th Aug 2008 4:41 pm
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Goodafternoon YF,
I also would not choose Land Rover or any other SUV again, one of many reasons would be that the engines are too thirsty and I predict that within a short time we will be paying about 2 euro's or more per liter, regardless diesel or benzin. Also the mind set in Holland is changing and not in favor of SUV's.
I drive a BMW sedan and imho BMW has the right vision with the efficient dynamics program.
I know that it's not fair to compare but I drive twice the distance on 1 liter diesel compared with our Freelander
also my wife had to visit the dealer more times then I did in 22 years of driving BMW.
Although I don't want it but I think the segment SUV will disappear soon.
regards Albert Frederik.
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 7th Aug 2008 3:20 pm
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Good afternoon, Frederik
Your arguments are understood and accepted. As I drive my Freely 2 very little (6-7.000 km p.a.) the fuel consumption is not the main argument for me. My avarage diesel consumption is 8,4 l/100km. The Mercedes GLK 220 cdi is said to consume considerably less! What I like with SUV's is the high entry and seating position, and the good overview. I have driven BMW's for more than 15 years (you may remember that I have exchanged my BMW X3 against the Freely 2), and my experience with BMW is mixed. Besides the for me unacceptable suspension, they are very unflexible and arrogant. I do drive on business Mercedes for quite some time now and my present (lease) car is a Mercedes E class 320 cdi automatic. My experience with Mercedes is very good: quick, professional, friendly and generous if it comes to keep the Mercedes-image clean.
I will keep my Freely for two more years until warranty runs out and than exchange. I need some vehicle to tow our horse trailer as my daughter loves riding and jumping (my great concern), and daddy is the chauffeur.
Best regards
Yamaha-Fan
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Nick Jan
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 277
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Posted: 8th Aug 2008 10:02 pm
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albert frederik wrote:Goodafternoon YF,
I also would not choose Land Rover or any other SUV again, one of many reasons would be that the engines are too thirsty ...... Also the mind set in Holland is changing and not in favor of SUV's.
Some may say the same about the mind set in the UK ..... however others would argue that this is simply media and politician induced prejudice! Several people have made snide remarks to me about gas guzzling 4x4s etc. .... as they climb into their sports saloons, estate cars, people carriers etc. which I suspect are probably worse than my lovely FL2!! 
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 8th Aug 2008 10:12 pm
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that one thing nobody has ever done to me, Maybe they think mine is more economical 
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Bill Turner
Joined: 08 Jul 2008
Posts: 147
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Posted: 1st Oct 2008 8:30 pm
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Question for Yamaha Fan,
I have added two stroke oil to the fuel twice and although it feels smoother the decrease in consumption appears to be minimul .I do not mind this as I am sure it will improve as the engine loosens up (only done 7k miles but have chaned engine oil for higher specification Morris of Shrewsbury product. If its good enough for Bentley it must be OK).
Question is though the car is only used every two weeks for officiating on forest car rallys when it does get a good mileage in (300 plus in a day) but in between it is parked up so will the two stroke oil in the fuel settle out and if it does what long term effect may this have?
Bill Turner
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 12th Oct 2008 10:21 am
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Sorry Bill, I have been on vacation and did not have access to the internet.
To answer your query: 2-T oil added to the diesel fuel will emulgate with the diesel and will not seperate again, even if stored for years. With regard to improvement of fuel consumption it will be less noticable on TD4 engines without DPF, but 0,1 to 0,2 l/100 km should be achieved after proper running-in of the engine.
YF
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Bill Turner
Joined: 08 Jul 2008
Posts: 147
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Posted: 12th Oct 2008 11:14 am
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yamaha-fan wrote:Sorry Bill, I have been on vacation and did not have access to the internet.
To answer your query: 2-T oil added to the diesel fuel will emulgate with the diesel and will not seperate again, even if stored for years. With regard to improvement of fuel consumption it will be less noticable on TD4 engines without DPF, but 0,1 to 0,2 l/100 km should be achieved after proper running-in of the engine.
YF
Many thanks YF that has reassured me and I will report back when we have about 15k miles on the clock.
Best regards,
Bill Turner.
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 25th Oct 2008 2:40 pm
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Nick Jan
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 277
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 6:13 pm
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I happened to mention this idea (adding two stroke to diesel) to my dealership service manager. He was horrified ....... and thought owners who tried it were taking unnecessary risks!
Sorry YF .... I explained that you appear to be an oil expert ..... he was not convinced.
I know nothing about oil, and had felt persuaded ...... now I'm just risk averse!
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 7:25 pm
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i think the dealer would say that though
personally if i did this i wouldn't say anything to my dealer
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Nick Jan
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 277
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 7:36 pm
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Yes of course Npinks. However he is both friendly, experienced and knowledgeable and not a "yes man", and he seemed genuinely shocked and concerned for any who have tried this tip!
I also note your use of the future conditional, in your response!! So I assume you also have some reservations?
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 7:57 pm
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i have no concerns about doing it
I just think if a car needed it it would already be in the fuel, (but i still understand the benefits as outlined by YF)
Too much messing about in my work suit, measuring in 300ml and then filling up is not something i can be bothered with
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 9:02 pm
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Hi Nick,
the reaction of your (otherwise good and experienced) dealer/workshop to the question of adding 2-t oil to the diesel fuel is normal and does not surprise me. It is, whowever, shocking to learn and to see as to how "uneducated" many so called "experts" are if it comes to questions outside their normal scope of day to day workshop routine.
Adding 2-T oil to the diesel is done now for many years, particularely after the available diesel has changed to "ulsd" - ultra low sulphor diesel for air pollution reasons. It is a matter of fact that sulphor in the diesel has a greasing effect to keep the high pressure pump and the injectors going. "Inventors" of adding of 2-T oil to the diesel has originally been the army, and later practised by the taxi drivers, who had to rely on their engines and related peripherie. Meanwhile even Universities have conducted long term tests on this issue with very positive results. You may read the results of the study in the book " Neccessity of additives to ULSD" by Prof. Dr. Mairing, University of Darmstadt.
It is further disturbing that the so called "experts" of our Landrover work shops do accept without applying any sense the Landrover motor oil recommendation according to the Ford norm 913 B , so called B1 oils, oils of the lowest possible quality. the Ford norm 913 B has been established in 1998 and does not appreciate the vast improvement in motor oil developments with regard to long term stability and low fuel consumption as laid down by the Eurepean Automobile Association ACEA.
Ask your work shop if they have ever questioned the motor oil recommendation of Landrover for our Freely 2, and why Landrover does not follow the ACEA motor oil classification as all other European car manufacturers do.
YF
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jimmy
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 300
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Posted: 26th Oct 2008 11:01 pm
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Fully agree with YF, in relation to the "experts".
My TD4 FL2 (with dpf) goes in for its 1st service soon. I asked the Dealer about the replacement engine oil they would use - and they advised Castrol Magnatec. This has the lowest specification rating possible. They also mentioned I could choose from 2 more alternatives - but I could not even find any info about them on the manufactures websites - they were so old. Needless to say, he agreed that I can take my own oil.
I've added 2T oil to the diesel from new, now done 20,000 km - the engine is smooth & quiet compared to a guy's FL2 that I meet at the fishing club. We position them side by side - switch on the engines - and listen to hear which makes the most noise. Not very scientific - but the result is always the same
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2008 10:49 am
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The Ravenol-Shop under "www.ravenol-shop.de" offers a first class 2-T oil which corresponds to JASO FC (smoke free) with an ash content of <0,04 Vol% at EUR 21,55 per 5 liter bottle plus HERMES-cost of EUR 6,90.
This is a first class offer for a first class 2-T oil.
YF
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Mike40
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 3
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Posted: 17th Dec 2008 1:03 pm
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Found a link to this thread from the Disco3 forum, it is an interesting idea so I joined up so I could ask a question or two.
The Discovery 3 has a Fuel Burning Heater which uses the diesel from the main tank to heat up the car quickly in the cold weather. Any idea if adding 2 stroke oil will cause problems with this unit??
Anyone used 2T in a TDV6??
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 17th Dec 2008 1:53 pm
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similar thread on RRS with same results and no one has said anything about FBH problems
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 17th Dec 2008 2:13 pm
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---because there are no such problems known or ever occurred.
I use the addtion of 2-T oil to the diesel fuel since day one and my parking heater runs smoothly and without any smoke.
YF
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Mike40
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 3
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Posted: 17th Dec 2008 2:25 pm
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Thanks for your quick replies, sensible ones as well! More than I got on the Discovery Forum.....
Will be sticking some in next fill up. What is the ratio per litre? I don't normally fill up, just put in 50litres at a time....
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avtur
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 1301
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Posted: 17th Dec 2008 3:38 pm
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npinks wrote:
I just think if a car needed it it would already be in the fuel, (but i still understand the benefits as outlined by YF)
Too much messing about in my work suit, measuring in 300ml and then filling up is not something i can be bothered with
That about sums it up for me too ....
Whatever benefits there may be they are at best marginal. If improved fuel consuption is the driving force behind the idea of adding 2T thats fine but I would suggest that minor modifications to driving habits are going to be far more effectice and don't run the risk of conflict with you local service manager in the event of a problem. The investment made in aquiring an FL2 is such that a marginal improvment in fuel economy is hardly going to be a deciding factor, in buying or not buying; keeping of selling.
I understand the comments made about 'so called' expert opinion coming from Land Rover folks but you wouldn't expect them to do anything other than repeat the company line would you?
Having said that even the 'real' experts have different 'opinions', I work in the fuel industry and have access to a friendly in-house Dr of Fuels and through him also a Dr of Lubes. There are definitely different opnons around from other well qualified folks.
I'm the last person to want to support Land Rover in some matters, but I think its accurate to say that the FL2 is not systematically troubled by engine lubrication problems, (as it IS for instance with computer glitches!), to the best of my knowledge there has never been an engine failure reported through these pages that has been attributed to Land Rovers recommendations for lubes, from that I would draw the conclusion that Land Rover recommend lubes are OK.
Now is it possible that there are technically superior lubes available as compared with what is recommended, then yes I'm sure it is, but what is the incentive to use them if current recommendations are not causing problems?
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 18th Dec 2008 9:02 am
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they put a additive in mine two
Said it was a engine cleaner of somesorts
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 18th Dec 2008 4:55 pm
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I have the feeling that some members do indeed underestimate the benefits of a better motor oil as recommended by LR or the proven benefits of adding 2-T oil to the diesel. I agree that market conditions may be different (e.g. speed limit in UK, no speed limit in Germany, or country specific temperatures etc.), but the fact is that Germany is a "high tech" country, and you will have to accept that comparisons are made, and deficiencies are reported.
One of the large 3 technical verification authorities (here: DEKRA) have conducted a 18 months car check of all vehicles offered in Germany. Among the SUV's, our Freelander 2 has shown the worst reliability record of all SUV's for a milage of 100.000 to 150.000 km. After inspecting the technical components which have created trouble (mostly engine and gear box), the used oils have been identified as not suitable for its purpose under long term aspects. The recommendation is: change the motor and gearbox oil against a fully synthetic oil and most of the recorded problems could have been avoided.
Interesting was that DEKRA has reported an excessive clugging of soot in the turbo charger and the high pressure injection pump, besides malfunction of the DPF due to excessive sulphor ash deposits.
Please note that soot is not equal to ash!!! Soot can be burned, ash not.
YF
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 18th Dec 2008 6:20 pm
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This is -again- remarkable news and the first time I see there should be issues with the gearbox. (auto ? manual ?) Do you have more details ?
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 19th Dec 2008 1:10 pm
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The DEKRA-report does not differenciate between manual and automatic gearboxes. So Paul, I cannot answer your question. But I will try to get my hands on the details.
YF
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chrisaviss
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 43
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Posted: 28th Dec 2008 12:20 am
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In my opinion, as a marine engineer, the addition of approx 1:200 parts 2-st oil to an empty tank before refuelling has proved most beneficial. The engine is less laboured from 1st start after only a few seconds at cold temperatures, and also sounds much healthier. There is almost no visible exhaust, apart from the inevitable brief visible water vapour, and it smells clean; not the usual abnoxious whiff. I have been using 2-s oil now for around one year, and I can also claim improved fuel consumption; approx 10% all round. However, the engine is still in the process of 'running in', having done only 24.5k miles. My car has an auto transmission, and I have now managed to attain a max of just over 40 mpg, albeit running with minimum pedal power, which I cannot maintain for very long, simply because it gives one some excitement to overtake another car from the traffic lights.
GB, Mark and James: you should ignore this message, but I really don't think it will be a problem. You know nothing!!!
Chris
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chrisaviss
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 43
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Posted: 28th Dec 2008 12:31 am
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Another one: since using 2-s oil, no more addition of main lube oil.
I say again, my engine sounds really sweet, especially when up to temperature. It purrs!
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Steuart64
Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 83
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Posted: 29th Dec 2008 11:44 am
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I have topped up 3 times now with a JASO Grade FC (300ml added) and see a great difference in mpg. Sat in cruise control at 77mph and the returned average has increased from 30mpg to 33mpg over a 200 mile trip. (approx 10.6 l/100km to 11.7). Did 400 miles plus at the weekend and felt the car was more responsive in 6th and smoother.
For Yamaha Fan - found this 2 stroke in Halfords (Castrol Power1 Scooter 2T JASO Grade FD partial synthetic at £8.49). I have a DPF fitted is this suitable? I seem to remember you advising that a particular engine lube oil as being the best choice for FL2 TD4 but cannot find the thread -can you please direct me as I want to use the best quality at first service in January?
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waaxh03
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 264
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Posted: 29th Dec 2008 6:05 pm
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Steuart64 wrote:I have topped up 3 times now with a JASO Grade FC (300ml added) and see a great difference in mpg. Sat in cruise control at 77mph and the returned average has increased from 30mpg to 33mpg over a 200 mile trip. (approx 10.6 l/100km to 11.7). Did 400 miles plus at the weekend and felt the car was more responsive in 6th and smoother.
For Yamaha Fan - found this 2 stroke in Halfords (Castrol Power1 Scooter 2T JASO Grade FD partial synthetic at £8.49). I have a DPF fitted is this suitable? I seem to remember you advising that a particular engine lube oil as being the best choice for FL2 TD4 but cannot find the thread -can you please direct me as I want to use the best quality at first service in January?
Have a look at this link regarding engine oil for a FL2 with DPF. There are also 2 links from that in paragraph 1 from AndyC to follow.
Regards
waaxh03
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waaxh03
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 264
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Posted: 29th Dec 2008 6:09 pm
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 30th Dec 2008 10:18 pm
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Out of interest, when your putting in the 2 stroke stuff have you used the stuff that has colour additive in it
I was at my local autospares shop and they had some which had either red or orange additive which i presume would dye the diesel for "easy identification"
Wouldn't this leave it red for Mr Customs or Mr Dealer to see what had been added
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 1st Jan 2009 4:53 pm
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Don't you worry: the coloring of the 2-T oil has nothing to do with the coloring of tax free or tax reduced diesel fuel for farmers and the like. 300 cc of colored 2-T oil to the tank will have no effect at all on the color of the diesel fuel. Besides this, the chemical components of the 2-T oil coloring are absolutetly different from the coloring components of the tax free diesel.
YF
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 1st Jan 2009 5:03 pm
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Above this, the same tank lorries that ared use for the transport of diesel are often filded with red domestic fuel oil as well. Consequently the tank is always slightly poluted by the red colouring agent. The customs allow this so the coulouring by the 2T oil shouldn't be a problem either.
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chicken george
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 6115
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Posted: 1st Jan 2009 5:50 pm
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yamaha-fan wrote: diesel fuel for farmers and the like.
the tax free diesel.
YF
reduced tax, not tax free. Poor CG has to pay and pay 
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Dave
Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 1651
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Posted: 1st Jan 2009 8:31 pm
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Steuart64 wrote:I have topped up 3 times now with a JASO Grade FC (300ml added) and see a great difference in mpg. Sat in cruise control at 77mph and the returned average has increased from 30mpg to 33mpg over a 200 mile trip. (approx 10.6 l/100km to 11.7). Did 400 miles plus at the weekend and felt the car was more responsive in 6th and smoother.
For Yamaha Fan - found this 2 stroke in Halfords (Castrol Power1 Scooter 2T JASO Grade FD partial synthetic at £8.49). I have a DPF fitted is this suitable? I seem to remember you advising that a particular engine lube oil as being the best choice for FL2 TD4 but cannot find the thread -can you please direct me as I want to use the best quality at first service in January?
I haven't used any additives in mine and my recent 1000 miles round trip to Worcester and back yielded an average of 35mpg @ 78mph using the cruise control.
Although I can't dispute the info provided by yamah-fan, I won't be adding anything to mine as I feel it doesn't need it.
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 1st Jan 2009 8:59 pm
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Dave, in my opinion you're right saying "you don't feel it needs it" as - besides of a smoother engine running - it is hardly possible to feel the difference.
All those consumption figures as well are very unreliable as it isn't possible to drive the same distance under exactly the same circumstances. However, the main reason to add two stroke oil is to reduce the risk of increased wear of the injection system, due to the - for "environmental reasons" - modified diesel fuel, and that's something one will find out only after a quite high mileage.
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Dave
Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 1651
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2009 11:05 am
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High mileage won't be a problem for me. Car goes back in 18 months and depending on market conditions I'll probably get me a new one
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 4th Jan 2009 10:53 am
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Dave, although I do accept your stand, you do not know what you are missing, if you do not try it.
"Thinking, believing or maybe" does not count unless you have experienced the benefits of adding 2-T oil.
I do not work for the oil industry or dealership, I am just a normal user.
YF
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Dave
Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 1651
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Posted: 4th Jan 2009 11:56 am
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yamaha-fan wrote:Dave, although I do accept your stand, you do not know what you are missing, if you do not try it.
"Thinking, believing or maybe" does not count unless you have experienced the benefits of adding 2-T oil.
I do not work for the oil industry or dealership, I am just a normal user.
YF
YF,
If I was going to keep the car for a long time then I would probably try it and see, but as my FL2 gets handed back to the dealer in 18 months I'd rather keep my money in my pocket.
I do work in the oil industry and at present the company I work for has back-orders totalling over 11 billion dollars.....
Recession..............what recession 
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mabo
Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 23
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Posted: 7th Jan 2009 2:37 pm
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The most respected Italian car magazine - Quattroruote - recently published a report after using a Freelander2 for 100.000 km.
After the test the engine was thoroughly checked and some soot was found around the valves that prevented them to work properly. This fact was blamed as the cause of deterioration of performances in the last part of the test (fuel consumption up, max speed down).
After reading their report any residual doubts I had about adding 2T oil immediately dissolved and I take this opportunity to publicly thank YF
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 7th Jan 2009 6:24 pm
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Thank you, Mabo, it is cream for my soul after so many critics (and some ignorants).
The German Technical Verification Authority has conducted a very similar test of the Freely 2 TD4 over 100.000 km with similar results: heavy soot deposits on the turbo blades, the outlet valves and the piezo injectors, which has led to reduced power and increased fuel consumption - but no breakdown yet. With the addition of 2-T oil this could have been avoided.
YF
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jimmy
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 300
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Posted: 7th Jan 2009 11:32 pm
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........adding 2T oil to diesel, is like adding flouride to toothpaste or tap water......
Obviously, non flouride toothpaste or water will not harm, but the flouride brings far more benefits compared to potential problems......
That's my rationale anyway !
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avtur
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 1301
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 12:02 am
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While there is good reason to expect that the solvents and additives contained in 2T oil may help cleanliness and solubility of dirt in the fuel (yes therefore keeping the valves and injectors clean). Is it not the case that these exact same properties can diminish the lubricity of the of the fuel, a particularly important feature of the fuel when used in modern ultrahigh pressure common rail injection systems. Any decrease in lubricity puts the pump at risk.
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jimmy
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 300
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 8:21 am
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my understanding is that the 2T oil replaces the lubrication in diesel fuel, that was lost when sulphur was removed from diesel fuel. I think this also explains why the engine sounds quieter after adding the 2T oil.
In addition, because it burns at a much higher temperature than the diesel fuel, it therefore promotes a "clean burn" - meaning cleaner exhaust fumes & much less "soot" build up in the engine, valves & particle filter.
(All this is from YF, who is the expert).
(I think in Germany they dismantled a diesel particle filter - from 2 engines, 1 of which had been using 2T oil. They discoved that it was only about 30% full of soot, compared to the other that was about 80% full). Both engines tested & measured under the same operating conditions of course.............
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 8th Jan 2009 9:49 am
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Yes, I can support Jimmy. 2-T Oil INCREASES the lubricity of ULSD diesel fuel (ULSD = ultra low sulphor diesel), which is only sold in most of Europe for air-pollution reasons.
Sulphor in the diesel has lubricating effects, and removing the sulphor did create technical problems to the high pressure injection system. As bio-diesel has a higher lubricating factor as ULSD, 5% of bio diesel is mixed to the diesel, and the lubricity of todays diesel is better, but still at the minimum level. Adding 2-T Oil will give the diesel the wanted lubricity for long term reliability besides considerable reduction of soot.
YF
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 13th Jan 2009 2:25 pm
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Yesterday I ordered 25 l. of mineral 2T oil with JASO TC spec. at 3,65 € / l. VAT incl.
Speaking with the representative of the oil company, I learned that apart from the colour additive there's some other stuff added to domestic fuel. (Unfortunately I forgot it's name  ).
The aim of this colourless additive is to make it possible to trace the use of decolourised red fuel, but it also means that if ever there are residues of red colouring agent found in your tank, (it seems to be possible to trace just 1 l. of domestic oil in a full tank), the analysis will proove that it's not because you drove on red diesel.
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 14th Jan 2009 10:53 am
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The colourless additive is SY124 (solvent yellow 124)
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Mopar1973Man
Joined: 16 Jan 2009
Posts: 1
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Posted: 16th Jan 2009 8:11 pm
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A friend drop me the link from another forum and was shocked to see the 2 cycle oil usage really has traveled the world. So to just help out on your 2 cycle oil study over there in the UK... We are doing the same thing over here in the USA.
I've got a huge amount of 2 cycle oil information on my own site to help you...
http://mopar.mopar1973man.com/tips/cummins...le-oil.htm
Let use combine forces and work together!
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avtur
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 1301
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Posted: 16th Jan 2009 10:38 pm
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I take my advice from someone who is a Dr of Chemistry and has spent a lifetime in fuel and lubricant development for brands that are respected the world over. I have taken his advice on this subject as a result of which I will not be using 2T oil.
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 16th Jan 2009 11:25 pm
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@ Avtur: could you tell us why he/she advised against it ?
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chicken george
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 6115
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 2:52 am
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from Mopar1973Man's link :-
"The 2 cycle oil concept was developed for LSD (Low Sulfur Diesel) designed trucks. (Pre 2007 model year)
DON'T USE 2 CYCLE OIL IN A ULSD DESIGNED VEHICLE!
DON'T USE 2 CYCLE OIL IN A VEHICLE WITH A DPF!
SUGGESTED NOT USE 2 CYCLE OIL IN A VEHICLE WITH A CAT!"
The fl2 has a cat, many euro versions also have a dpf
http://mopar.mopar1973man.com/tips/cummins...ailure.htm
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bjartin
Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 612
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 10:43 am
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Today I found in my local STATOIL a bottle of Two Stroke Oil.
2-TWay. Low Smoke. (Bottle with 200 ml).
API TC, ISO EGD, JASO FC, ROTAX 253 - It looks out to be the best of the best. Of course, produced by the Norwegian Statoil.
.
I have to date not begun to use 2-stroke oil, have not decided yet.
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AndyC
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 3279
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 11:11 am
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As avtur, I will NOT be adding 2T oil to my diesel. I am unconvinced that forum debating about adding 2T oil (or what spec. motor oil we should be using) can come to anything but confusion in making a decision to or not to add.
Regardless as to what claims are made by forum members, which may sound very logical, I still cannot accept that if it was meant that we should add oil to our diesel then Land Rover would insist that we do just that.
Additionally, the website that CG posted it clearly states at the top DON'T USE 2 CYCLE OIL IN A VEHICLE WITH A DPF!
My FL2 has a DPF so that is clearly another reason not to add. Your FL2's may have a CAT, so that is another reason to forget the 2T oil debate immediately.
Lastly, why on earth should so many forum members doubt Land Rover
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avtur
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 1301
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 11:23 am
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Paul wrote:@ Avtur: could you tell us why he/she advised against it ?
As I said earlier in the thread ....
"...... there is good reason to expect that the solvents and additives contained in 2T oil may help cleanliness and solubility of dirt in the fuel (yes therefore keeping the valves and injectors clean)...............these exact same properties can diminish the lubricity of the of the fuel, a particularly important feature of the fuel when used in modern ultrahigh pressure common rail injection systems. Any decrease in lubricity puts the pump at risk."
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avtur
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 1301
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 11:26 am
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AndyC wrote:
Lastly, why on earth should so many forum members doubt Land Rover
I must admit I agree with this ......
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bjartin
Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 612
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 11:33 am
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Here is an amateur-expert who also has knowledge about oil. He calls himself "Bob, the oil guy".
I'm not as interested in the topic, so I have not read what he writes --- there is too much to read through.
Maybe someone is interested, so here it is...................................
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 11:54 am
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@ bjartin:
thanks for the link but there's no search function and so far I couldn't find anything about 2 stroke oil.
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 12:15 pm
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avtur wrote:Paul wrote:@ Avtur: could you tell us why he/she advised against it ?
As I said earlier in the thread ....
"...... there is good reason to expect that the solvents and additives contained in 2T oil may help cleanliness and solubility of dirt in the fuel (yes therefore keeping the valves and injectors clean)...............these exact same properties can diminish the lubricity of the of the fuel, a particularly important feature of the fuel when used in modern ultrahigh pressure common rail injection systems. Any decrease in lubricity puts the pump at risk."
Strange. One should forget that 2T oil serves as the -only- lubricant of a 2 stroke engine in the first place. Contrary to a 4 stroke engine where the metal components run in an oil bath and/or are lubricated under pressure, the 2 T oil is mixed with the gas and this suits to lubricate the pistons and cylinders, the crankshaft bearings etc.
Therefore it obvious that 2T oil has much better lubrification properties than diesel oil, so how could it diminish the lubricity of diesel when used as a additive ?
All 4T oils contain additives to keep the engine clean. Those do not harm the lubrification properties either.
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Alona
Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 189
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 12:43 pm
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So are we now saying, that because we have a cat we cant use 2T oil
What damage will it do.
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bjartin
Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 612
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 1:23 pm
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Alona, you have Td4 and no cat.
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 1:50 pm
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I had a look at the "bob-is-the-oil-guy" site: many statements but very few well-grounded clarifications...
On the internet one can find opposite opinions about any subject. If those opinions are not even justified, it is no more but a waste of time to even read them.
I would like to recommend all unbelievers to read the contributions of especially Yamaha-fan again as she put lots of work in giving detailed technical justifications for her point of view. Untill now, I din't find technical explanation that took the edge of her arguments. The opposite is true.
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AndyC
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 3279
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 2:34 pm
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bjartin wrote:Alona, you have Td4 and no cat.
..but you may have a DPF
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Alona
Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 189
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 3:08 pm
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Takk bjartin
And no DPF AndyC. Remember were i'm from. The DPF costs more money
Not sure but it does look good this 2T thing.
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bjartin
Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 612
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 3:42 pm
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Paul wrote:, it is no more but a waste of time to even read them.
I'm glad I did not use the time to read it, but thank you for your inspection.
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 3:53 pm
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you're welcome.
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bjartin
Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 612
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 4:10 pm
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bjartin wrote:
API TC, ISO EGD, JASO FC, ROTAX 253 -
ISO EGD, JASO FC is explained by YF, but what about ROTAX 253 and API TC .
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 4:49 pm
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Rotax 253 is a single cilinder snowmobile engine but it's also the name of the oil classification.
API TC: American Petroleum Institute - standard for high performance engines.
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bjartin
Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 612
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Posted: 17th Jan 2009 5:52 pm
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Many Thanks, Paul.
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bjartin
Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 612
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Posted: 19th Jan 2009 11:06 am
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bjartin wrote:Today I found in my local STATOIL a bottle of Two Stroke Oil.
2-TWay. Low Smoke. (Bottle with 200 ml).
The text on the bottle is very positive:
#Part synthetic oil for use in land-based 2-stroke engines, with or without separate lubrication. Keeps the engine clean and minimizes exhaust smoke#
In 2008 I spent 1,650 l diesel (22.000km). Normally I fill up 50 liters each time, consequently, I have visited the petrol station 33 times. If I had used 1 bottle (200 ml à 25 DKK) each time, it would be 33 x 25 = 825 DKK is approximately 100 € / 100 £
It increases my expenses by 5.5% (825dkk / 15.000dkk)
Yes, I know I can get much cheaper oil by buying larger quantities and / or other product.
In the calculation, I used 200 ml / 50 l, while recommended 300ml of full tank.
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avtur
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 1301
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Posted: 19th Jan 2009 2:23 pm
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Paul wrote:
All 4T oils contain additives to keep the engine clean. Those do not harm the lubrification properties either.
There is a difference, oil in 4T engine does not enter the fuel induction system. Here we are talking about putting the 2T oil into the fuel system of a 4T engine. In a 2T engine the oil/fuel mixture does not come into contact with the extreme high pressures found on a modern diesel engines fuel system.
If other people wish to use the 2T oil that's fine, I'm just giving my reason not using it.
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 19th Jan 2009 2:49 pm
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quote: In a 2T engine the oil/fuel mixture does not come into contact with the extreme high pressures found on a modern diesel engines fuel system.
Modern diesels have indeed much increased injection pressures. In combination with the low sulfur diesel oil that doesn't lubricate as good as the "old" diesel used to do, I would assume that adding some additional lubricant could only be advisable. As I mentioned before, no make of car nor any fuel company would ever admit this officially as it would question the quality of their products and that's exactly why technological and scientific test results are hardly available.
Anyway, I respect your decision. No hard feelings, avtur.
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2009 3:10 pm
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As I have said enough to this issue, I will not comment any more posts, and I will be quiet now.
YF
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2009 3:17 pm
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I understand your decision YF. Anyway, thanks again for your most interesting posts about this subject.
btw: what happened with your nice avatar ?
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jimmy
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 300
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2009 10:47 pm
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yamaha-fan wrote:As I have said enough to this issue, I will not comment any more posts, and I will be quiet now.
YF
...you have my vote for the most interesting and beneficial post on this forum, so please don't be quiet !
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bjartin
Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 612
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2009 7:35 pm
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Hey Jimmy,
What 2-stroke oil do you use, and what is the price ( dkk ) of a bottle ( 1 L )?
Which gas station?
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jimmy
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 300
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2009 11:57 pm
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hej Bjartin,
I'll post the details tomorrow - it's a bit nippy now to go to my garage in my jimjams....
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jimmy
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 300
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Posted: 24th Jan 2009 12:45 pm
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bjartin wrote:Hey Jimmy,
What 2-stroke oil do you use, and what is the price ( dkk ) of a bottle ( 1 L )?
Which gas station?
Hej bjartin,
I use Shell Advance VSX 2T oil (from Shell garages of course ).
It exceeds JASO FC, API TC, ISO_L_EGC.
If you go on the Shell.dk website - then you can see all the oils they offer, their properties & quality ranking. And this was the best 2T oil.
I'm sorry but I can't remember the price - but all Shell garages will be the same.
Maybe I can save Dkr 10, if I buy a different 2T oil from another garage, or in a 10ltr bottle, not 1tlr....but it's not worth the effort in the big scheme of things. I prefer to use the "best", from a readily available source (Shell garages).
Hope this helps !
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bjartin
Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 612
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Posted: 24th Jan 2009 3:53 pm
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jimmy wrote:
I use Shell Advance VSX 2T oil
Hope this helps !
Tusen tak,
I will try it in a short ( ? ) period.
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zone30
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 460
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Posted: 29th Jan 2009 4:34 pm
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Most interesting subject.
Very keen to try when they deliver my car, but since they do checkup after an initial few kms, I think I'll wait till after that. At least then I might sence a difference to make me confident (or not) to continue.
Will look into the better engine-oil also on my first real service.
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chrisaviss
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 43
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Posted: 13th Feb 2009 10:29 pm
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I can understand people's reluctance to use any liquid that has not been recommended by the manufacturer, especially with regard to our FL2 engines.
However, LR are not the makers of this engine, and LR's allegiance to PSA is formative, to say the least. That is a shame, because LR have had a fine history of solid, reliable diesels to their name; it was obviously, to LR, more remunerative to bring in another manufacturer for the FL2 marque.
It is mainly for this reason that I believe firmly with YF on both counts; LR have seriously underestimated their prospective lube oil specification for the PSA engine, and the reduction of added sulphur for lubrication purposes in all mainstream diesel fuel pumping stations (UK) may contribute to local lubrication problems within the high pressure fuel pump (common rail injection).
I therefore endorse, yet again, YF's recommendations, and having had some really expensive lube oil (Castrol Edge) put into my car's engine, and the addition of approx 1:200 2-s oil (JASF/A to C, whatever was available at every fill-up), I may say quite categorecally that I am more than satisfied with engine performance.
If I could realise the same sort of results on the larger engines that I work with, at sea, then I would be more than happy.
Chris.[/b]
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Genoa1893
Joined: 06 Mar 2009
Posts: 3
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Posted: 6th Mar 2009 10:09 am
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Hello Yamaha Fan, All,
I joined your forum following the link supplied by another member of briskoda. I owe a Skoda Octavia RS TDI PD 170 and just wanted to share my finding after having tried a DIY addiction to my tank (around 55lt, 60 with reserve) . My car has 10 months and 50000Km (yes I drive a lot ). I filled with:
- about 200cc White spirit (also known as Stoddard solvent), which should act as a detergent;
- about 200cc Kerosene, which should raise cetane number;
- about 50cc (but I0m not absolutely precise here) of 2stroke oil.
Results: Car was much more silent (when cold, I almost can't hear the engine at idle), quick to rev (I reached about 4900rpm) and smoooth.
I'd like to know your opinions and expertise on this mix or other recipe, besides filling next tank with 300cc semi synth 2 stroke oil.
Thank you,
Stefano
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 10th Mar 2009 10:42 am
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Hi Genoa1893
I admire your courage to add this mixture to your fuel (diesel) tank! I would strongly recommend NOT to do it!
I firmy believe that the addition of 2-stroke oil in the ratio 1:200 to the full tank (330 cc to 68 litre) will serve all purposes as mentioned by you, besides considerable reduction of diesel soot.
YF
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 10th Mar 2009 3:34 pm
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Important News on the 2-Stroke Oil to diesel theme:
The International Automobil Association has issued an official statement in the Worldwide Fuel Charter in which they demand to increase the lubrication capabilities of todays diesel fuel from at present HFRR 460 um, or higher, to min. HFRR 400 um, or lesser. The reason is the increasingly reported break down of the high pressure diesel injection pums worldwide, and the unwillingness of the manufacturers to deal with the vast amount of warranty claims.
The Wordwide Fuel Charter has confirmed that the commercial diesel fuel even with the addition of the recommended dosis of 2-T oil STILL conforms to the DIN standard, however with a recognisable inmprovement of lubricating properties.
So we will see in the future here a developement in diesel fuel qualities.
YF
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Genoa1893
Joined: 06 Mar 2009
Posts: 3
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Posted: 11th Mar 2009 10:20 pm
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yamaha-fan wrote:I would strongly recommend NOT to do it!
YF
Hi YF, many thanks for your kind feedback.
If possible I'd like to know your reasons for not recommending.
Warm regards,
Stefano
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 12th Mar 2009 10:49 am
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Hi Stefano
Diesel fuel for commercial vehicles is manufactured to international standards, in Germany to DIN-Standards.
Such diesel already contains additives to act as detergent, and the cetane number is sufficient for all modern diesel engines. In other words, the available diesel fuel -at least in western Europe - has been blended with additives as per the specifications of our car manufaturers. BUT: with the introduction of ULSD diesel (ULSD = ultra low sulphor diesel) the lubrication effects of sulphor have been removed, and even the DIN-certified diesel has a big deficit -the lubrication of the high pressure injection pump and the injectors is not any longer ensured. The automobile industry has many years watched this development without acting, as the reliability of the high pressure engine components has shown to be ok for a certain number of kilometers (or milage). However, after a certain running time (around 100.000 km or less) an increasing number of breakdowns of injection pumps and injectors are reported, and slowly, slowly, the automobil industry is recognizing this fact abd have started their own analysis. Tests with adding 2-T oil to the diesel have been internally conducted - but it takes time to complete the scientific proof and argumentation.
The practice of car owners to add the dosis of 2-T oil to their diesel fuel is going on for some years now with very positive results, not only with regard to increased lubrication, but positive side effects have been noticed, such as very good cleaning capabilities of the 2-T oil, considerable reduction of diesel soot in the burning process, and an increase in the Cetan number of the "doped" diesel by 2 to 3 points.
So, quite francly, I see no reason to add anything else than 2-T oil to the diesel to come to the wanted results, and to ensure a long term reliability of the engine compnents.
YF
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Genoa1893
Joined: 06 Mar 2009
Posts: 3
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Posted: 12th Mar 2009 9:35 pm
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Hallo YF,
many thanks for your patience and answer.
After some refill with low ash 2-stroke oil I really found the smoothness of the car increased. Less noise, faster in getting speed.
And I expect a general improvement with subsequent refills.
Thank you and warm regards,
Stefano
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Basil
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 2
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Posted: 30th Mar 2009 2:59 pm
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Just wanted to say - this topic really has gone around the world now! I was encouraged to try adding 2-T oil to my VAG PD 1.9 engine and have done 150km with it. Scary-smooth. Easy starts. I love it.
What is funny is that the diesel available here in Bahrain, Arabian Gulf apparently is still sulphurated - soon to switch over to non-sulphurated. The clatter of the PD injectors (uprated ones) has been quietened by about 40% or more.
Makes such a difference. No cat or DPF to worry about.
Yamaha-fan - viel Dank für das Teilen dieser Informationen! (meine Mutter kommt aus Salzburg!)
Bas
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Basil
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 2
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Posted: 1st Apr 2009 3:47 pm
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zone30
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 460
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2009 8:58 am
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The discussion seems to be very similar to this one.
It of course is a scary thing to try, especially on a new engine and since I do not have a old diesel engined car I cannot try on any other car.
I might persuade my brother who bought my fathers 12y old astra diesel to try it first.
The thing that is most supporting the idea is that I still have to find one bad comment by someone who actually sais he tried it. The worst comment is neutral at best by someone who used another additive already tough even then it was an slight improvement which tells me it's even better then the original additive (Millers, whatever that is).
Another issue is that these new cars are disigned on current available fuels so why change the fuel?
This is countered by the fact that cars are driven all over the world where fuel quality can be very poor. So engines should be able to handle adding an additive like 2T with no problem. Also dealers seem to add engine cleaninig additives themselves tough only once per many many miles.
In the skoda thread I read someting about PD engine breaking up the molecules of the 2T-oil. Is a FL2 engine a PD-type engine? I'm not an engineer of any kind but I believe PD stand for Presure Diesel working with 2,000BAR (30,000PSI) injectors where as others work at much lower pressure (don't know how much).
I also read that bio-diesel only stays intact below 1.5BAR and 2% is mixed in UK diesel. I also believe to have heard that Europa wants to add 5% in the long term.
Technically there is much discussion, but practally there seems none. I've yet have to find long term experiences by FL2-type engines, so if anyone can report on them I'd gladly read them.
I'm not sure on the warranty issues either. Is it still covered or not? I cannot ask my dealer as he then surely check on it. I also would not expect him to tell yes anyway as he has to cover his own ass if things go bad. Also why should he endorse it if it reduces maintenance cost on which he makes his living on. He surely wont say yes if it's a bad thing to do. So I know what he will say though cannot determine the foundation for his answer.
Still not sure what I'm gonna do with this info. Very keen to try but fear still holds me back, especially if it is not covered under warranty which I'm not sure about.
What to do, what to do....
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alex_pescaru
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 409
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2009 11:00 am
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zone30 wrote:Is a FL2 engine a PD-type engine? I'm not an engineer of any kind but I believe PD stand for Presure Diesel working with 2,000BAR (30,000PSI) injectors where as others work at much lower pressure (don't know how much).
No, FL2 engine is a common-rail engine.
PD is a brand name owned by Volkswagen and stands for Pumpe Düse injector/system.
Each injector (also called unit injector http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_Injector) has its own small pump inside generating its own pressure by actuation by the camshaft.
Bottom line, the high pressure pump and the injector head/nozzle share the same "body". Thus, a four cylinder engine has four high pressure small pumps inside cylinder head.
In common rail system, as FL2's, there is a single high pressure pump and a rail which delivers high pressurized fuel to all injectors heads/nozzles.
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zone30
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 460
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2009 11:58 am
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Ok, thx, no need to worry about that part then
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roan
Joined: 24 Apr 2009
Posts: 1
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Posted: 24th Apr 2009 12:59 pm
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Be using the 2-stroke oil in my diesel for the past two weeks,im noticing a great improvment.
My local shop is selling 2-stroke cheap but it doesnt say if its Synthetic,semi synthetic or mineral, just wondering does anyone know,have added the brand below.
Roan
Carlube 2-stroke Motorcycle oil XL
SPEC: API TC ,JASO-FB
It also says selected from base oils and low ash additives
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Dave
Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 1651
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Posted: 26th Apr 2009 8:27 pm
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Well, I did say on another thread (or maybe this one) that I wasn't going to go this route but alas I decidd to give it a go.
Tis early days yet but I can report that I have an increase of approx 4mpg on my regular trip from Aberdeen to Worcester and back and on the return journey arrived back in Aberdeen having used just under 3/4 of a tank of fuel. Trip meter indicats 36.7mpg at a steady 80mph using cruise control which equates to 550 miles to a tank of fuel.
Previous journeys have only given 32.7mpg for the same route and driving style.
Guess that adding 2-T oil is having some effect
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nigel207
Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 2
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Posted: 30th Apr 2009 11:10 am
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Is anyone able to give an update regarding the Carlube oil as my local factor sells this too?
Thanks,
Nigel.
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zone30
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 460
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Posted: 30th Apr 2009 12:14 pm
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I would be nice to know from those who've used it:
- How long you've been using the 2T oil (time and distance)
- What kind you are using (with image if you can to avoid confusion)
- Benifits/drawbacks you've noticed. (eg mpg, noice, tremors, dsf, starting issues etc...)
That way you get a picture of longterm usage and a more sure way of selecting the correct additive.
Also feedback from those who stopped using it. What happened then?
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 30th Apr 2009 5:52 pm
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Nothing will happen, if you stop using 2-T-oil. Engine noise will increase slightly, fuel consumptiion will go up a little, and wear and tear of the high pressure engine components will start. That is all.
Nigel207: your choosen 2-T oil conforms to JASO FB, so it is mineral, which is perfectly ok for your engine without DPF (diesel particulate filter).
YF
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nigel207
Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 2
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Posted: 30th Apr 2009 6:08 pm
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Thanks YF! I will go and get some.
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Steuart64
Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 83
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Posted: 1st May 2009 12:26 pm
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I have been using a JASO-FD with my DPF fitted model. It is non-synthetic and I have noticed a great improvement in smoothness and mpg
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toothandnail
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 3
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Posted: 7th May 2009 8:32 pm
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I've read this thread with interest, and would like to try it. One thing I've not seen is any information about the risks involved when the vehicle has a catalytic converter. Is low ash 2 stroke oil safe in such situations, or am I likely to find that I need to replace (expensive!) the cat?
paul.
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GrinningLander
Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 29
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Posted: 7th May 2009 10:23 pm
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This thread is for diesel owners and diesels do not have cats. 
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chicken george
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 6115
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Posted: 7th May 2009 10:37 pm
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Apparently diesels do have cats this has been discussed before, see the engine specs in the LR brochure. Not a full cat as on a petrol engine but a simplified one???
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toothandnail
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 3
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Posted: 8th May 2009 12:09 am
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GrinningLander wrote:This thread is for diesel owners and diesels do not have cats.
 I wish you were correct, but I can assure you that my Fabia VRS is both diesel and does have a cat. It is a simpler one than those fitted to petrol cars (two stage instead of three?), but it is there....
paul.
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 8th May 2009 9:40 am
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Don't you worry, the addition of the recommended dosis of 2-T oil to the ulsd-diesel will NOT affect the diesel catalysator. No reports whatsoever on this issue!
YF
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toothandnail
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 3
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Posted: 10th May 2009 4:30 am
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yamaha-fan wrote:Don't you worry, the addition of the recommended dosis of 2-T oil to the ulsd-diesel will NOT affect the diesel catalysator. No reports whatsoever on this issue!
YF
Thanks for the information. I will get myself some low ash two stroke oil and try it the next time I fill up.
I will report the results once I've had a chance to run it for a while.
paul.
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dervdave
Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 1
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Posted: 19th May 2009 5:19 pm
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Would someone just run through the reason for not using a synth. oil such as Stihl ?
I would`ve thought it ideal because of usage ratio is 50% less than normal two stroke oil ie in strimmers 50:1 against 25:1 and has very low deposits after burning.
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Citroen_C5
Joined: 26 May 2009
Posts: 4
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Posted: 26th May 2009 12:55 pm
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Nice work yamaha-fan, thanks for all informations.
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 26th May 2009 1:41 pm
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can you remove your weblink from your signature
I believe it is in breach of our commercial posting rules
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zone30
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 460
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Posted: 28th May 2009 1:59 pm
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What does it all mean????
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 28th May 2009 2:10 pm
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it looks like bloke with a Citreon C5 is is giving Freelander 2 owners a load of figure, that change due to 2T in his citreon, which makes no sense to me either
Since OP Yam-Fan no longer owns a FL2 it might be better for Y-F to set up a help website as this thread seems to be attracting non FL2 owners with the findings getting out onto other car forums, these people might be waiting around for an answer that never comes and risking a 2T thats not suitable and ends in damaging their engines.
I think it should be said FREEL2.com is not responsible for anything you may read on this website or others quoting text from here. You Try this or anything else at your own risk
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Citroen_C5
Joined: 26 May 2009
Posts: 4
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Posted: 28th May 2009 4:19 pm
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Well guys parameters show how work the injection system in HDI engine before and after using 2T, you can see injector, high pressure pomp... ( I remember I read at the beginning that your engine it is developed by PSA and Ford and have DPF=FAP... so are similar like my HDI engines this is why I posted here where I read about 2T.
In log you can see the correction for each injector ( max permissible it is 5mg/stroke ) and High pressure pomp values.
In time ( after 500-1000km) will see if the limits will change: if will be lowers ( 0 it is ideal ) then 2T it help, if no... bad luck and I will stop using this.
At this moment it is to soon to take a conclusion but I will monitor the engines and after 500-1000km when I will try to take a conclusion and keep you posted also if my FAP like or not the 2T oil.
At this moment after 30km my car engine work properly, no problems at all.
Luc
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alex_pescaru
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 409
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Posted: 28th May 2009 7:55 pm
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Citroen_C5 wrote:In time ( after 500-1000km) will see if the limits will change: if will be lowers ( 0 it is ideal ) then 2T it help, if no... bad luck and I will stop using this.
It's better to keep in mind that injector corrections are directly dependant of injectors status _AND_ cylinder status (compression).
So, if the compression of a certain cylinder is lower than others, then the correction for that cylinder will increase to compensate for lower efficaciousness and vice-versa.
So, in my opinion, the injector corrections are not a good reference for efficaciousness of 2T...
Just my $0.02
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 28th May 2009 7:57 pm
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It would be surprising if any differences would be noticeable after 500 - 1000 Km. A comparison after 50 000 - 100 000 Km would be interesting though.
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maddy
Joined: 29 May 2009
Posts: 1
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Posted: 29th May 2009 12:29 pm
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Hi all, first off thank you YF for all your hard work in the use of 2-stroke, i've not used it yet but will be as soon as my tank is empty, i have a ford Mondeo TDCI, 130
first, to all who are worried about using 2-stroke in with your fuel, take a look at the crap being put back into your engines by the EGR valve you will be shocked, i have taken off my EGR valve and my car runs great and better MPG, and less smoke when putting my foot down,
Second, to all who are worried about your CAT, well you don't need one its not a MOT requirement (not here in the UK) so take it off, (although i don't see how using 2-stroke will mess it up) i have and it runs better as there is no back pressure, so the turbo runs more freely,
Doing the all the above will give you slightly more power and better MPG it has for me, i was getting 39-40MPG all town driving, now i get 45-48MPG not bad for a few simple mods,
ALL Credit for the above mods all go to fordmondeo.org forum
As soon as i start using 2-stroke in with my fuel i will let you know of my out come, until then, safe and happy driving.
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ouranos67
Joined: 25 Jun 2009
Posts: 1
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Posted: 25th Jun 2009 6:59 am
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I got a Tier III Perkins agricultural tractor and I wonder whether I could use red oil which contains 2000 ppm Sulfur. Could the 2-stroke oil do any good regarding red oil? Thanks in advance.
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alex_pescaru
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 409
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Posted: 25th Jun 2009 7:25 am
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If your 1106D-E66TA Perkins engine accepts fuel with 2000ppm sulphur, I believe that there is no need for adding 2-stroke oil.
2000ppm sulphur is more than enough to properly lubricate the internal parts of the fuel system.
But with that quantity of sulphur you should change for sure the engine oil more often.
You need to be sure that it is safe to use that kind of fuel. Look into the engine's specifications.
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 2:45 pm
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npinks, your suggestion that I should open my own web-site on the 2T-Oil subject is a good idea, but I do not have a web-site and I do not intend to open one for time reasons.
But I wish to say one last thing: using 2T-Oil (even in excessive dosis above the recommended 1:200 mix) will NEVER damage the engine, nor any other engine parts!
So do not worry - any liability question is most unlikely!
A German Mercedes-Forum has as on today reached 286 pages on the 2T-Oil subject with no end in sight.
No negative experience has been reported so far - and is also not expected, but the positive reports are overwhelming. Even with the known conservative Mercedes owners.
YF
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 3:09 pm
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Chris P
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Posts: 15
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 5:30 pm
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I have been using 2T oil (fully synthetic) on my old Discovery 1 for several years now (since sulphur was minimized in diesel fuel) and I think that I saved my fuel pump as other people had to overhaul theirs (always speaking for old cars and of various brands). The dose I am using is only about 1:500 (just because I thought this is enough) and I can assure that I have not found any disadvantages except that it costs my a bit more every time I fill up my tank. When the warranty of my Freelander 2 expires, I will use 2T oil in its fill-ups as well.
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MikeC
Joined: 07 Jun 2009
Posts: 21
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Posted: 19th Jul 2009 1:26 am
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All,
I would be interested to hear weather any of our Australian members have tried Yamaha's method of adding 2 stroke to the fl2's Diesel....
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Steuart64
Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 83
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Posted: 20th Jul 2009 8:20 am
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Quite correct Andy with regard to PETROL - as you state.
2 stroke is a lubricating combustible hydro-carbon and diesel is also combustible hydrocarbon.
I have been running my FL2 for over a year now with 2 stroke addition with no adverse effects only a smoother running engine and improved mpg.
I believe Yamaha Fan changed cars for other reasons not 2 stroke issues!
For info the British Cheiftan battle tank could run on all combustible hydrocarbons (including vegatable oils) with the exception of highly refined petrols.
I see a lot of adverse comment directed to Yamaha Fan but so far he has been the only one to nail his colours to the mast and fully state his qualification for his comments - Well done Yamaha Fan
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 20th Jul 2009 8:35 pm
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Yamaha fan was - and as far as I know - is a she Steuart64.
...but you're right
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AndyC
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 3279
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Posted: 20th Jul 2009 9:05 pm
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Yeh whoops I am still in my BMW
Of course I should had said diesel and not petrol. However with all respects to Miss, Mrs. or Mr. YF, I prefer to take the advice of Land Rover regarding which engine oil I should use, and if or not we should add 2-stroke to the "diesel" fuel.
I have earlier had long correspondence with LR (UK and Norway) particularly concerning FL2 the oil spec. and frankly some of the claims that have been made earlier just do agree with the facts. The advice given by Land Rover is clearly stated in the Owners Handbook and anybody who diverts from that, does it at their own risk.
My FL2 has been running on normal diesel for 1.5 years (without any fuel additives) and had absolutely no problems and which is extremely economic and runs as smooth as it did on day one. It also has no problems coping with the Norwegian winter temperatures which can be -25C.
So what is the point in adding 2-stroke oil at all. It certainly is not needed in Norwegian FL2's.
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 20th Jul 2009 9:53 pm
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Andy, I don't know how many Km. or miles you drove in 1.5 years but it's probably not enough to notice any difference in regard of noticeable wear.
There has been said so much in this topic that it's hardly possible to add anything that hasn't been mentioned before. Maybe you should read everything again from the beginning...
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chicken george
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 6115
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Posted: 20th Jul 2009 10:31 pm
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YF is a guy , I think ? he had a pic of Lucy Liu? as an avatar for a while so that maybe caused confusion?
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 20th Jul 2009 10:49 pm
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It's amazing how most people are mistaking. Even on the German Freelander site Blacklandy.be, I had to correct someone in 2007 - and got Yamaha-Fan's answer as follows:
Wie Paul aus Gent richtig festgestellt hat,
Gruss von (Frau) YF
If you have some notions of German , it should be clear now. (a bit late though )
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chicken george
Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 6115
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Posted: 20th Jul 2009 11:00 pm
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ok Im wrong again
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 20th Jul 2009 11:07 pm
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Doesn't matter CG. Btw I wonder where her name "Yamaha-fan" came from: fan of Yamaha as make of motorbikes or musical instruments ?
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 21st Jul 2009 2:12 pm
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YF is smiling - anybody confused that women know something about cars, engines and oils?
Paul: YF is coming from my motor bike racing days a couple of years ago, where I participated in amateur races on Yamaha-bikes to finance my studies.
After the birth of my son, I have given up racing for motherly reasons.
But I still ride a Yamaha motor bike privately for fun and pleasure.
And yes, I am still heavily engaged in legal work for the international motor and oil industry.
YF
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Paul
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 393
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Posted: 21st Jul 2009 2:22 pm
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Nice hearing from you YF ! And nice to hear that you like motorbikes too.
Actually, I'm a motorbike enthousiast myself as well (Buell-, Ducati- and last but not least Norton-fan...and -owner)
Could you really finance your studies by motorracing ? I assumed this costs
only lots of money.
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 21st Jul 2009 3:20 pm
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Not if you have a sponsor or two....!
Best regards YF
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FieryJack
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 3
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Posted: 11th Sep 2009 3:35 pm
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This thread is very popular all over the net
As i'm in Romania, 2stroke oil is very difficult to come by - the only one I've found is Jonsered. Would this be suitable by any chance? The label hardly gives any information other than it made in Sweden!
..although I've just noticed I'm 2 months late ...so I'll be lucky if I get an answer
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Citroen_C5
Joined: 26 May 2009
Posts: 4
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Posted: 11th Sep 2009 4:26 pm
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FieryJack let's not exaggerate ... just go to MOL fuel station and buy a bottle of MOL Dynamic Sprint 2T x 1l ~15ron.
I already used 2.5L until now and all it is ok on my HDI engines.
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alex_pescaru
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 409
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Posted: 11th Sep 2009 7:43 pm
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Or go to OMV or PetromV and buy 2T-S oil (fully synthetic if you have a DPF filter) or 2T-M oil (mineral - if you don't have a DPF filter).
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FieryJack
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 3
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Posted: 12th Sep 2009 8:00 am
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Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough! Thanks
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jono
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Posts: 1
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Posted: 13th Sep 2009 10:25 am
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hi there yf. just wandering would the 2 stroke oil in the deisel be ok to put in a 93 toyota landcruiser and a 90 nissan safari. the toyota has a 4.2 turbo motor n the safari a 4.2 non turbo. what oil wud you sugest for these in new zealand
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FieryJack
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 3
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Posted: 13th Sep 2009 3:01 pm
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Citroen_C5 wrote:... just go to MOL fuel station and buy a bottle of MOL Dynamic Sprint 2T x 1l ~15ron.
Been to lots of places - can't get it - went to Agip - 2T racing oil 51ron!!!
Edit: Mol, Dynamic - 15 ron - excellent
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 1st Oct 2009 2:36 pm
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Jono, please accept that I am not an owner of Landrover any longer. So I normally do not participate anymore in this excellent forum, but visit from time to time out of pure interest.
The your questions: Q 1 - yes for both cars. If they have a high milage, use one liter 2T-oil for the first two or three tanks to speed up the cleaning of the engine-components (removal of soot-deposits). Thereafter, the dosis of 1:200 will do.
Q2 - I assume that New Zealand has similar climatic conditions as Western Europe. If this assumption is correct, I recommend Mobil 1 0W40 full synthetic, or alternatively Mobil 1 5W40.
All recommendations are my personal opinion/experience and are given without any liability.
YF
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Boxer
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
Posts: 186
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Posted: 10th Jan 2010 4:39 pm
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Can I ask if anyone is doing this, and if it has been okay for them?
It does make sense to me, and have bought oil today, but would like to check there has been no negative experiance.
Even if it is only used in the winter for easier starting I think it could have some benefits.
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Boxer
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
Posts: 186
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Posted: 10th Jan 2010 8:26 pm
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Come on guys, no opinions on this. 
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 10th Jan 2010 9:14 pm
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Somebody I know who had a grey LR before buying a new one did it, found not much difference at all
but lots of others have reported good results to using it, and continue to do so, personally I have better things to do than measure out oil when filling up just to make no difference, or a slightly quieter engine
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zone30
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 460
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 9:16 am
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I was planning to but descided against it for the same reasons as npinks. Maybe when I descide to sell it I'll do it, but that wont be for a long looooooong while...
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Boxer
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
Posts: 186
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 9:15 pm
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Just added the oil and now it won't start.
I think theres a warning there
Anyone know how to drain the tank ?
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rover60
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 205
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 9:27 pm
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been adding 2 stroke for 3 years never had a none start 300ml to 65 litres in such small quanities it does more good than it does harm I think
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 9:38 pm
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Boxer wrote:Just added the oil and now it won't start.
I think theres a warning there
Anyone know how to drain the tank ?
how much oil have you put in and are you sure it was correct oil etc
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Boxer
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
Posts: 186
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 9:55 pm
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rover60
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 205
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 10:05 pm
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boxer I think mine is semi synthetic oil if you go to the begining of the post Yamaha fan explains what oils are what
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 10:12 pm
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I honestly don't know what to say appart from cross your fingers and pray it cheap to fix
check the detail of the oil as per Yamahas posts
I presume you put it in just prior to a full tank of diesel so it mixed itself in
I would have thought 300ml will have not caused a instant no start mixed in with 65L but possibley a rough engine (but that's just me guessing)
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Boxer
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
Posts: 186
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 10:17 pm
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Thanks for the replies guys.
I will keep you informed.
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 10:21 pm
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Does it say anything like this on the bottle
yamaha-fan wrote:You are most welcome, CK.
I would use any of the two 2-T oils, whichever I would get cheaper.
You can also use the Mobil Extra 2T.
Important is, that those 2T-oils should comply with JASCO "FC" or ISO L-E "GC" or "GD", which should be written on the bottle. All 2T-oils as per these norms burn with an ash content of less than 0,05%.
YF
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Boxer
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
Posts: 186
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 10:23 pm
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npinks wrote:I honestly don't know what to say appart from cross your fingers and pray it cheap to fix
check the detail of the oil as per Yamahas posts
I presume you put it in just prior to a full tank of diesel so it mixed itself in
I would have thought 300ml will have not caused a instant no start mixed in with 65L but possibley a rough engine (but that's just me guessing)
It was idling rough after i put it in. could this be engine oil ? It does say suitable or pre-mix on the bottle though.
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rover60
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 205
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 10:28 pm
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going back to your post to halfords it does look as if that is engine oil for 2 stroke engines and not 2 stroke oil for mixing
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Boxer
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
Posts: 186
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 10:30 pm
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Can i ask what you use ?
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 10:32 pm
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try PM the OP Yamaha-Fan, she might be able to answer a few worries 
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Boxer
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
Posts: 186
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 10:39 pm
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Thanks for your haelp guys, It's a big help when people rally round to help.
As it stands I have a company called Dr fuel who are going to drain the tank and fuel lines and injectors.
Thay are coming tonight as i need the car for tomorrow.
Once again thanks for the support.
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rover60
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 205
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 10:39 pm
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origan 2 stroke meets all the low ash content and jasco as the 2 stroke does not have a sump it must be for pre mix did you put it in first then add diesel or after you added your diesel if you put it in first it might have been at the bottom of the tank and not mixed at first and gone up to the injectors quite thick is it running at all ?
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Boxer
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
Posts: 186
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 10:46 pm
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No not at all.
Added 330 ml to half a tank then went to fill it at my local morrisons about 1 mile away. took it for a five mile run,and knew it was not running right, quite lumpy.
Stopped it startedit then started it straight away.
left it half hour then no start.
Got the battery on charge currently just in case it takes a real good turning over to start it after its been drained and refilled.
Plan to get some redex injector cleaner in there tonight and take for another run after the tanks been drained.
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rover60
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 205
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 10:58 pm
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maybe being so cold and oil being heavier it went to the bottom and got taken up the fuel line and in to the cylinders which would explain the rough running I hope you get it sorted
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mcphersonstrut
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 1049
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 11:11 pm
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Exactly my thoughts...the thicker oil has settled at the bottom of the tank and it's been pumped through. Maybe for future you should pre mix half a gallon (2 .2 litres ) in a gallon (4.55 litres ) can.
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Boxer
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
Posts: 186
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 11:19 pm
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Hope your right guys.
Do you think thee may be any long term damage, like putting petrol in?
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rover60
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 205
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Posted: 11th Jan 2010 11:26 pm
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It might take a while to crank the new fuel through to the injectors but I dont think it would do any long term damage after all it is only oil once cleared through might smoke for a little while but that should clear
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 11:13 am
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good news Boxer
have your tried the Millers diesel stuff , Redex Blue
You know the stuff thats actually meant to go in your tank with diesel
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 12th Jan 2010 1:54 pm
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I think to finish this thread off with a previous post of mine as this saga shows how it can go Wrong and could have been even more expensive
npinks wrote:
I think it should be said FREEL2.com is not responsible for anything you may read on this website or others quoting text from here. You Try this or anything else at your own risk
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 21st Jan 2010 5:27 pm
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I have read the last posts with great interest! But one thing is irritating: even if you add a full litre of motor oil to your tank full of diesel the engine will normally start and not show the symptoms as reported by Boxer.
So something else must be the reason of the start-failure, such as clogged diesel filter or water deposits in the diesel tank. So please do not jump to the wrong conclusions. Mistaking 2T-oil with motor oil may happen, but does not have the negative effect as described if used in the small quantities as recommended for 2-T oil.
By the way: the European Fuel Board in Brussels have officially recommended the use of suitable 2-T oil as addition to the diesel as independent tests of DIN diesel fuel all over Europe have show that such diesel fuel did not have the properties as it should have under the DIN-standards, particularely not the lubrication properties.
A great blamage to the fuel industry and a great triumph to the 2-T oil user!
YF
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 21st Jan 2010 5:56 pm
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thanks for your thoughts on this Y-F
does the brussells thing get published on a website?
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Boxer
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
Posts: 186
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Posted: 21st Jan 2010 7:27 pm
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Yamaha fan, have you checked my link to see the oil i used ?
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2010 9:44 am
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Yes, npinks, it does get published. But such protocolls are not meant for public viewing. Only insiders and authorised lawyers may read such protcolls. I am not permitted to cite or to repeat the exact wording of such protocolls, but I am permitted to talk about its contents, if not marked as confident.
Boxer, the type of motor oil you may have put into your diesel tank is quite irrelevant. So I do not bother with your link.
YF
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Atrix
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 18
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Posted: 26th Jan 2010 10:03 am
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In few days I will get my hands on my new FR2 diesel from a dealer in Dresden. So, I was very interested in the thread about adding T2 oil to diesel. The technical knowledge exposed by Ms Yamaha Fan sounds very convincing and the user feed back is good, so I am going to try it out right from the beginning. In particular, because I will got a car with PDF.
But I would like to ask, how adding of T2 oil would affect the fuel characteristics and engine at sub zero temperatures and how about adding so called 'anti-gel' additives preventing diesel parafynation. Does anybody know, if it would be ok to add T2 oil and 'ant-gel' simultaneously, or choose just 'anti-gel'? Many thanx!
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Alona
Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 189
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2010 3:26 pm
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Hi All
I made contact with UK Customs regarding this today. I was informed that if i was to use this, even if i was to pay the FULL DUTY on the fuel and the 2T oil, i may still not be paying the full duty on the oil as it was not intended as a fuel additive. Thus breaking the law. They are looking into this and will come back.
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xtattsbox
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 269
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2010 3:35 pm
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I don't know the fine detail of this, but when I had my first diesel engine and it was a common rail, once the car was over the warranty, we would get the car serviced by a motor engineer, you know the ones, they actuatlly know how engines work and can fix them!! Anyway. I had put some oil in the car, thinking that it had run out. He showed me that I had overfilled and in a Diesel engine this was a big no no as the engines, once hot can draw the excess oil from the sump and run on that (flat out!) Now I don't know if that was a pre common rail engine or not but I think that a little oil will not make any difference.
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Alona
Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 189
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2010 3:47 pm
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The customs guy seamed to indicate that if i was stopped and dipped, i could still be breaking the law.
Why if i buy my fuel at full price, and buy the 2T oil in the shops, can i still be breaking the law by not paying full duty
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Nidge
Joined: 03 Feb 2010
Posts: 2
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2010 8:28 pm
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Yamaha fan many thanks for the advice, I've been reading your posts for the last few weeks. I've been adding 2 stroke semi synthetic oil for 3 weeks now, I do over 1000 miles a week in a Mondeo TDCI I have noticed a great improvement in acceleration, fuel consumption and reduced engine noise. I have recomended this to all my workmates who have started using 2 stroke ss Oil.
Many thanks
Nidge.
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Nidge
Joined: 03 Feb 2010
Posts: 2
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Posted: 5th Feb 2010 5:03 am
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Alona wrote:The customs guy seamed to indicate that if i was stopped and dipped, i could still be breaking the law.
Why if i buy my fuel at full price, and buy the 2T oil in the shops, can i still be breaking the law by not paying full duty
Can't see how the Customs can do anything?? The duty has been paid on the fuel and the oil your just adding a additive to the diesel that's all
I'm a Taxi driver and do 1000 miles a week, if I can get hold of anything that will make my car run better and give me a good fuel return I'll use it, this adding 2 stroke oil to diesel is working for me and IMO it's legal to do so.
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Alona
Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 189
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Posted: 5th Feb 2010 3:15 pm
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Nidge wrote:Alona wrote:The customs guy seamed to indicate that if i was stopped and dipped, i could still be breaking the law.
Why if i buy my fuel at full price, and buy the 2T oil in the shops, can i still be breaking the law by not paying full duty
Can't see how the Customs can do anything?? The duty has been paid on the fuel and the oil your just adding a additive to the diesel that's all
I'm a Taxi driver and do 1000 miles a week, if I can get hold of anything that will make my car run better and give me a good fuel return I'll use it, this adding 2 stroke oil to diesel is working for me and IMO it's legal to do so.
Well got back in contact with customs today. This has been moved up the chain for further guidelines.
If your stopped at the moment by the police and customs, how can you at the side of the road fight your case? They will remove your motor untill they run tests to find out if its red diesel due to low duty on that type of fuel, or red due to the fact that the 2T oil used may have been dyed.
This is what i'm asking. I would like to use it also, but not if the motor is removed from me.
Alona
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toolvayne
Joined: 10 Dec 2009
Posts: 13
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Posted: 5th Feb 2010 6:21 pm
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I have been using it now for 4 full tanks on my freelander 2, and for 3 full tanks on my FFRR Td6, and I can say that I´ve really seen a difference. You can feel it when you rev the engine, it starts more quickly, less exhaust fumes (no more black or gray smoke), better economy, even when idling on a light you can feel the engine running smoother. I am also telling my friends who have diesels to start using it.
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 6th Feb 2010 7:47 pm
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Alona, sorry to say this, but your customs queries are bullshit!!!
YF
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Alona
Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 189
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Posted: 6th Feb 2010 8:45 pm
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I agree with you yamaha fan.
I cant figure out what they are thinking. But what we think is commonsense doesn't always work. Its like i said before. If i pay full duty on the fuel, and the full cost of the 2T oil from the shops, how I'm i doing wrong?
But if the 2T oil dyes the fuel red, due to 2T oil that i can find being that colour, then if I'm stopped the customs say I'm in the wrong as they think its red diesel.
Someone on here must know the ins and outs of UK and European duty laws.
Alona[/i]
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 10:37 am
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330 milli litre of 2-T oil added to 60 litre of diesel fuel will not colour the diesel red. Besides this, the red colour of tax free or tax reduced diesel has a totally different chemical consistence as the red colour of 2-T oil.
To avoid all doubts just keep your cash receipt from your last petrol station and you will be on the safe side.
YF
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Atrix
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 18
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Posted: 7th Feb 2010 2:10 pm
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I am still interested in, how adding 2-stroke oil would affect the viscosity of the diesel at winter temperatures. Is there any risk that pouring oil into tank would hamper the flow of diesel? Or is it better to take other additives in the winter instead of oil , e.g. castrol TDA etc.? Thanks 
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Alona
Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 189
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Posted: 8th Feb 2010 9:44 am
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yamaha-fan wrote:330 milli litre of 2-T oil added to 60 litre of diesel fuel will not colour the diesel red. Besides this, the red colour of tax free or tax reduced diesel has a totally different chemical consistence as the red colour of 2-T oil.
To avoid all doubts just keep your cash receipt from your last petrol station and you will be on the safe side.
YF
Said all of this YF. Red on dipping is red. But on further testing the 2T oil would show. In the mean time NO FL2.
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Matthius
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 35
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Posted: 10th Feb 2010 1:35 pm
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Atrix wrote:I am still interested in, how adding 2-stroke oil would affect the viscosity of the diesel at winter temperatures. Is there any risk that pouring oil into tank would hamper the flow of diesel? Or is it better to take other additives in the winter instead of oil , e.g. castrol TDA etc.? Thanks
I did not have any problems starting the engine while outside temperature was -26C. Filled about 3 times since then, temperatures still below 0 - no issues at all.
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Atrix
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 18
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Posted: 10th Feb 2010 7:57 pm
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Thanks, Matthius, for sharing your experience! In Berlin, there are approx. 6 degrees below the zero now. I added a dose of mineral based 2-stroke oil at my first fill-up a week ago and can't complain: after the start engine is running well. Perhaps I should use semi-synthetics in the winter though. Today I took my new Freely to a bosch-service for installing an Eberspaercher heater and asked to do it in the way that the heated coolant is led to the engine block first. Normal engine start-up has priority for me over the warmth in the cabin, because the winters in my home-country Latvia are harsher than here in Germany:) Freelander version sold in Russia have Webasto-auxiliary-heater installed as standard, which would make sense for me too. I read in a Russian LR forum that the folks there distrust the 2-stroke oil and rely on Castrol additive TDA, which unfortunately I coudn't find at petrol stations in Berlin
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alex_pescaru
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 409
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Posted: 11th Feb 2010 10:10 am
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Atrix wrote:I read in a Russian LR forum that the folks there distrust the 2-stroke oil and rely on Castrol additive TDA, which unfortunately I coudn't find at petrol stations in Berlin
There are two different things:
- 2T oil is for improving the diesel fuel's lubricity and
- Castrol TDA is for lowering the diesel fuel's gelification temperature.
Both can be used, in the same time.
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Atrix
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 18
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Posted: 11th Feb 2010 11:38 am
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Yes, I agree, Alex, that Castrol-TDA-additive is more versatile since it is a product specially designed for all types of diesel engines. In TDA, 'anti-gel' characteristics are paired with cleaning and lubrication functions. As for costs comparison btw. oil and TDA, they seem to be equal. In another thread, I have recently found a statement of yamaha fan suggesting for 2 stroke-oikl improvement in terms of diesel viscosity as well and as long I am not able to find TDA I will be using 2-stroke-oil. Thanx, Alex!
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 12th Feb 2010 3:16 pm
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I strongly believe that Castrol's TDA diesel-additive will not meet the qualities of a good 2-T oil addition as long as this 2-T oil meets the JASO "FC" standard. From the legal point please note that Castrol's TDA additive is a fuel additive which most car manufacturers do not appove of, whereas 2-T oil does not count as additive as 2-T oil is in its chemical consistence differently cracked and improved mineral oil. The addition of 2-T oil to the diesel in the recommended dosis cannot be analysed under normal circumstances as the 2-T oil emulgates with the diesel oil. This emulgation will lead to the superb benefits of adding 2-T oil, such as increased CETAN value, cleaning capabilities, increased lubrication and, last but not least, increase of viscosity.
YF
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Atrix
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 18
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Posted: 12th Feb 2010 5:23 pm
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Thanks, Yamaha Fan, for your valuable comment!
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Roughneck6zero
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 1
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2010 11:14 am
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I have a new vehicle with the Mercedes OM642 V6 Diesel , the engine Mercedes used in the test from Paris to Bejing. Replacement engine cost is £17000 + fitting. I am friends with an honest Mercedes Dealer , hence the info.
Would I or anybody take the risk of causing damage if we were not sure of the benefits of adding 2 stroke?
Yamaha fan is 100% correct, since first reading this article some 5 months ago , I have been adding mineral 2 stroke at a ratio of 200:1
I have reaped all the benefits of adding 2 stroke to diesel fuel and had zero problems.
It is also added to family cars , Honda 2.2CRTI Sport, Ford Focus Tdci, Seat Ibiza tdi, VW Golf GT tdi , all reaping the benefits and no problems.
Sounds like the guy who filled up at Morrissons paid for a tank of dodgy diesel , probably bio crap.
All my friends report the same benefits with big mileage and big smiles on their faces since using it.
Find a Volvo or Scania Lorry fitter , they have known about this and been using this additive for years.
Any of you daft enough to buy a French diesel , should really start ASAP.
As the French in their infinite wisdom make the injection pumps innards from Brass , then wonder why the brass filings show up in the oil filter.
Might as well have built them out of plasticine.
Typical arrogant French Engineering, Remember these are the folk who built the aircraft carrier Charles de gaule, which was only fit for scrap the minute it went down the slipway from the builders yard.
Too proud ( of what I'm not sure) to buy one in from another nation.
It can only attain half it's design cruising speed, any more and the reactor will go into meltdown
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alex_pescaru
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 409
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2010 12:26 pm
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Aside the fact that you are another happy user of 2T oil, quite some frustrations are steaming out from between your lines...
Without trying to patronize you (considering the end part of your post, I have no chance for this) maybe you should read more about the properties of the brass, depending on the proportions of the copper and zinc.
If properly lubricated, for rotating parts, brass is better than any other alloy...
Just consider the electric motors or the power generators inside power plants with their bearings made of brass which works for years without interruption...
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MacWallace
Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 77
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2010 8:37 pm
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Roughneck6zero - I have just noticed this thread and have read the contents with interest. I note that you live around Ulster so will be subject to similar products to me here in Perthshire. Can you advise what specific product you have been using and, in relation to a full tank of diesel in the F2, how much of the 2 stroke you are using (I know you referred to 200:1 in your previous thread, but to be honest that means nothing to me!)
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mcphersonstrut
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 1049
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2010 10:03 pm
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This is a compilation of Y fans best bits (And your answer MacW is 330ml to a full tank )
Quote YF....
I would use any of the two 2-T oils, whichever I would get cheaper.
You can also use the Mobil Extra 2T.
Important is, that those 2T-oils should comply with JASCO "FC" or ISO L-E "GC" or "GD", which should be written on the bottle. All 2T-oils as per these norms burn with an ash content of less than 0,05%.
one more information to the interested reader when buying 2-T oil:
The "JASO" specification of 2-T oil means "Japan Automobile Standards Organisation"
For JASO F: the higher the letter behind the "F" the better the performance of the 2-T oil
JASO MA = for 4-stroke motorbike engines
JASO F = for 2-stroke motorbike engines
JASO FA = standard 2-T oil
JASO FB = low smoke
JASO FC = lowest smoke
For Europe, the equivalent of JASO is ISO:
ISO-L-EGB equals JASO F
ISO-L-EGC equals JASO FB
ISO-L-EGD equals JASO FC
Any 2-T oil which meets the JASO norm FB or FC will do. Buy the 2-T oil you can get at the best price.
I firmly believe that the addition of 2-stroke oil in the ratio 1:200 to the full tank (330 cc to 68 litre) will serve all purposes...end YF quote.
So buy a 330ml pop bottle - drink it, then fill that bottle up with your 2T oil, and take it to the petrol station add the bottle contents then fill the car up (The pop bottle was ad210358's idea)
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MacWallace
Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 77
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2010 7:44 pm
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Thanks again mcphersonstrut
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mcphersonstrut
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 1049
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2010 8:19 pm
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Your welcome MacW - but the thanks should go to YF
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MacWallace
Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 77
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2010 8:59 pm
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You are right mcphersonstrut Thanks YF for all the info
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engchamp
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Posts: 1
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Posted: 28th Mar 2010 1:03 am
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Just to reinforce YF's views, it is important that the high pressure fuel pump on a "common rail" (CR) diesel engine is lubricated, in order that it maintains a constant fuel injection release pressure; by this I mean the plunger, and its sliding contact with the barrel/cylinder needs to be lubricated. Diesel fuel is not as good as in the past, due to the current reduced sulphur content, which acted as a lubricant. On some expensive, and perhaps larger engines, where the high pressure CR fuel pump is a lot bigger than on car engines, the fuel pump cylinder may be made of a ceramic material, and the plunger of a good quality alloy steel. Most auto manufacturers are reluctant to use this advantage, as it is very expensive. Having said that, I am not sure what is used in the manufacture of the FL2 engine CR fuel pump. What I am sure of, is that my particular FL2's engine has been on the go for over 43k miles, using a 200:1 2T oil at every fuel refill, with excellent results.
What I am also sure about, is that if the fuel injection pressure deteriorates because of wear between the CR pump plunger and barrel, then expensive problems will result.
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gumdrop
Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 37
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Posted: 28th Mar 2010 11:03 pm
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Ok - I've trawled through all the posts on this topic ... question for those who have gone down this route in the UK - what 2T oil (brand) and where from to get the best deal?
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Oldie
Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 14
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Posted: 16th May 2010 12:42 pm
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Added 2 stroke oil at last fill-up to my 07 GS (43,000). I now no longer have exhaust smoke at start up and also a huge improvement in acceleration, really noticeable in 2nd and 3td. Crusing in 6th gear is now smoother when running below the 2000 rpm band which, previously, had been a bit laboured. I'm impressed
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Oldie
Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 14
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Posted: 17th May 2010 2:13 pm
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Ahhh, the smoke has returned...don't know why  Not much, but a few puffs when starting up first thing this morning. Will have to monitor this.
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 21st May 2010 3:55 pm
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Oldie, a little smoke ist normal as the added 2-T oil will clean the soot deposits within the engine. This will reduce near zero after some time. 2-T oil will in general reduce the production of soot, proven by the reduced clauding factor of the exhaust fumes.
YF
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Oldie
Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 14
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Posted: 24th May 2010 10:49 am
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YF - looks like the smoke has now gone Car drives very well. Thanks
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markiec
Joined: 03 Feb 2010
Posts: 20
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Posted: 7th Jun 2010 2:30 pm
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to YF . . . . . toyed with trying this for a while now & finally gave it a go a couple of weeks ago. It really does make a difference . . . much quieter & smoother tho a minor hit on MPG for the first couple of tanks.
Someone asked where the best value 2T oil (YF relevent spec) could be found. Best deal I've found in the UK is Wilkinsons . . . costs £1.99 for 0.6L . . . . works out at a pound a tank . . . . Can anybody beat that?
MarkieC
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andrewprd
Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Posts: 51
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Posted: 10th Jun 2010 2:51 pm
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About to give it a try but have some observations.
It has been reported that when people inadvertently put a very small about of petrol in a half full tank of diesel before realising and then filling with diesel there appears to have been no adverse effects. When this has happened claims of quieter and better performance similar to those circulating around the two stroke oil mix have been made.
However, petrol is as we all know a disaster in a diesel engine. The main effect, so I am told is petrol has a severe corrosive effect on the seals in a deisel engine. My question is - Does adding two stroke oil have similar long term detrimental effects on these seals?
Also, if this is such a safe and impressive additive (sorry addition). Why hasn't some company latched on to this and produced a commercial product based on the two stroke formula.
I respect the views of YF but would welcome some more comforting facts to confirm its safe long term use.
Regards
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Graham
Joined: 12 Dec 2009
Posts: 2
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Posted: 12th Jun 2010 8:55 pm
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I can't believe what some people try!
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andrewprd
Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Posts: 51
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Posted: 13th Jun 2010 7:54 am
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Graham,
I'm sorry if my post was not clear.
I am definately not suggesting people are adding a small quantity of petrol. I've heard that when people add a small quantity [b]by mistake [/b]they report the same results as the adding of two stroke.
Petrol is a disaster for diesel, we all know that. I'm told that petrol rapidly degrades the seals in a diesel engine.
My question was:-
Does adding two stroke (Re: this thread) have a similar effect on the seals in a diesel engine, possibly slow long term damage?
Or is your amazement at me thinking of trying two stoke oil (again this thread)?
Regards,
AndrewPRD
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2010 3:37 pm
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Adding petrol to diesel fuel is under certain circumstances (extreme cold) up to a percentage of 10% acceptable.
However, petrol does not degrade seals or other internal parts but washes away the oil-film within the cylinder and prevents greasing of the high pressure injection pump. 2-T oil eliminates most of this, and, more important, increases the viscosity of diesel fuel in the winter. 2-T oil will in the recommended specification (Jaso FC) NOT damage or detoriate any seals or gaskets.
YF
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andrewprd
Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Posts: 51
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 11:26 am
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Thank you YF for that information. Of course treated as information only.
A decided a few days ago to try the T2 1:200.
My main reason was to try and quieten what I believe to be a noisy diesel on 2008 FL2 HSE. (Particularly when cold). I am told there is nothing wrong with the engine and this is well noted with this engine.
Early results after 150miles on the T2 mixture are not evident. Cannot detect any improvements reported by earlier members. May be it is a little early. I will be patient.
Regards
AndrewPRD
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Dave
Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 1651
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Posted: 24th Jun 2010 9:18 pm
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andrewprd wrote:
Also, if this is such a safe and impressive additive (sorry addition). Why hasn't some company latched on to this and produced a commercial product based on the two stroke formula.
They have, Redex for one and a few other whom I forget now.
Personally I think its hogwash, had no problems with my FL2 in 2 1/2 years of ownership and no problems with the wife's either after nearly 3 years of ownership. I can't believe that adding such a small amount of 2 stroke oil would have the effect that others are claiming.
As they say in the real world "Bullshit Baffles the Brain".
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bilun777
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 15
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Posted: 5th Jul 2010 9:10 am
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Dave wrote:andrewprd wrote:
Also, if this is such a safe and impressive additive (sorry addition). Why hasn't some company latched on to this and produced a commercial product based on the two stroke formula.
They have, Redex for one and a few other whom I forget now.
Personally I think its hogwash, had no problems with my FL2 in 2 1/2 years of ownership and no problems with the wife's either after nearly 3 years of ownership. I can't believe that adding such a small amount of 2 stroke oil would have the effect that others are claiming.
As they say in the real world "Bullshit Baffles the Brain".
Google millersoils their ecomax additive increases cetane number as well.[I used it in my puegeot 205 over 20 years ago.179000 miles in 4 years and it never missed a beat-all original injectors ,pump,etc]
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andrewprd
Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Posts: 51
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Posted: 19th Jul 2010 9:09 pm
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I thought I would report my findings so far on adding 200:1 two stoke in petrol mix.
I have run two complete tanks through with the mix and found:-
No noise reduction. The engine is definately no quieter and if anything more noiser when cold. (This was the main reasin for trying the mix). I bought my 2 yr old FL2 HSE secondhand, three months ago. Despite being told there is nothing wrong I think this diesel engine is very noisy compared with VW or BMW. A big disappointment.
Secondly, I have not noticed any improvement in performance and now noticed a lag in pick up when accelerating.
Finally, absolutely no improvement in fuel consumption.
My first tank I used two stroke from Halfords. The second tank I bought Esso extra two stoke. No difference.
Back to using straight deisel I think?
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ou toppie
Joined: 18 Mar 2010
Posts: 28
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Posted: 28th Jul 2010 5:39 pm
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Good day YF.
i have been reading this thread with great interest and would be very interested in your comments regarding the following.
Here in SA we have 2 available grades of diesel. 1- 500ppm sulphur and 1- 50 ppm sulphur.
Having worked for Caterpillar for more years than I care to remember, we were always aware of the consequen ces of heavy diesels utilising high sulphur content fuel,even 35 years ago, and always advocated halving the oil change period under such conditions. We have now arrived at a situation whereby too little sulphur is creating problems with lack of lubrication ( even if the manufacturers have yet to acknowledge the problem )
If you were running a diesel powered vehicle here in SA which option would you go for? the 500ppm and halve the oil change period or the 50ppm and add the 2stroke mix.
I suppose my real question is, is the 500ppm diesel giving sufficient lubricant?
I look forward with interest to any comments you have.
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 28th Jul 2010 5:44 pm
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Bear in mind YF only pops in when she's not driving her Merc so it can be a little delay in reply
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ou toppie
Joined: 18 Mar 2010
Posts: 28
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Posted: 29th Jul 2010 4:57 pm
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Understood. Thanks
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2010 2:19 pm
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Besides the positive impact on pollution-control, I would choose the low sulphor diesel PLUS recommended dosis of proper 2-T oil. In the sum of its effects this combination is the "better" fuel, as sulphor has negative effects on the motor oil and cleanliness of the engine in general.
YF
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2010 2:38 pm
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To all interested: besides driving my Mercedes GLK 320 cdi Automatic with adding 2-T oil from day one, I now also test-drive for three months a 2010 facelift-model Nissan Qashqai dCi 2,0 litre Tecna Automatic in Titanium metallic. Adding 2-T oil here from day one is a "MUST" (although not "approved" by Nissan), and I will report my findings from time to time. Funny enough, it seems that I prefer the Qashqai over the GLK, as the Qashqai is much more compact and easier in the City. Acceleration, riding comfort, engine noise, suspension etc. is more or less equal to the GLK, so I am very surprised of the qualities of the Qashqai (made in UK), besides the huge price differerence over the GLK.
YF
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Dave
Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 1651
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2010 6:58 pm
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YF,
Do you have any official documents/evidence to support your claim
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 1:02 pm
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Yes, I have. But I am not authorized to make them public. Read the technical publication from Prof. Dr. Mayering: Fuels and additives.
YF
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alex_pescaru
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 409
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 5:02 pm
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yamaha-fan wrote:Yes, I have. But I am not authorized to make them public.
Why?
Is this such a secret? Because people knows and are adding 2T to diesel for such a long time now...
Even biodiesel is a kinda burning oil (mono-alkyl ester). And more and more the biodiesel is mixed with low sulfur diesel.
Biodiesel has better lubricating properties and much higher cetane ratings than today's lower sulfur diesel fuels. Biodiesel addition reduces fuel system wear, and in low levels in high pressure systems increases the life of the fuel injection equipment that relies on the fuel for its lubrication. Depending on the engine, this might include high pressure injection pumps, pump injectors (also called unit injectors) and fuel injectors.
Source: Wikipedia.
For example, in my country the biodiesel is mixed with low sulfur diesel in 5% ratio (B5) at fuel stations. And it helps lubrication almost as 2T oil...
So, in the end, why the secrecy, when alternatives are appearing at the horizon, because it isn't such a rocket science...
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Atrix
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 18
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 6:52 pm
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Concerning the bio-diesel it is good to know that it is "healthy" for the fuel system. But another question mark is biodiesel's winter-characteristics. I am not sure that viscosity thresh-hold would be the same compared to the "normal" diesel. Especially, if we got a harsh one like the last winter
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athelstan
Joined: 03 Nov 2009
Posts: 374
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 6:57 pm
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If I understand YF's status correctly, as a "Rechtsanwältin" (female Lawyer) in Germany working directly or indirectly in the oil industry it is most probably incumbent upon her that she discharges her client duties under binding non-disclosure agreements.
I sense that her disclosures here to date are as such limited by her official remits, and not by any limitation in her knowledge or by any desire to deceive. I believe her actions/posts are entirely in good faith.
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 7:03 pm
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I don't doubt her finding posted she is obviously very knowledgable in the field of 2T oil
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Dave
Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 1651
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 8:38 pm
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What I can't understand is that someone (in this case YF) joins a forum, makes a claim about something and nobody questions it.
As far as I am concerened, it is bullshit unless evidence can be supplied to verify the claim.
Do people on here really believe all that they read in newspapers, probably not, so why believe something typed on a web forum
just my 2p worth.
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npinks
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 8104
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 9:18 pm
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i know what your saying, but plenty of people seem to benefit from the additional time spent pouring other stuff than diesel into there tanks, i suppose like most things the very 1st every person to think of adding 2T was taking a risk
apparently adding Tomato Ketchup into your power steering reservoir will make your car corner like its on rails
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Atrix
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 18
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 9:27 pm
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I am one of those benefiting from YF advice. And I am very thankful to her for the time and energy invested in this and similar threads on 2-t-oil. 12 000 km on the clock of my FL and every fuel tank with a good dose of 2-t-oil. Thus, it is up to you: take it or leave it
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alex_pescaru
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 409
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Posted: 4th Aug 2010 9:29 pm
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Regarding the biodiesel's winter-characteristics, indeed, the gelling point of biodiesel is quite high but the 2T oil is also increasing the viscosity of diesel fuel. Therefore, during cold periods, other actions must be taken for lowering the viscosity of the diesel fuel. In other words, besides biodiesel or 2T oil, other petroleum additives must be added to diesel fuel.
As for what I've said in the previous message, I don't doubt that adding a little 2T oil is beneficial for the engine. It is! I've seen it and heard it from experts in mechanics. Many workshops, even official ones, when rebuilding diesel engines and diesel high pressure pumps are adding a small amount of oil inside fuel, especially when starting that engine/pump for the first time after rebuild.
What I've tried to point out is the fact that, as Dave suggested, when you make a statement, it is better to back it up with evidence from your or others experiences / experiments.
And when somebody tells me that something is in a certain way, but he can't (or isn't allowed to) tell me why, I became a little circumspect... Sorry, maybe it's my technical nature, but this is the way I feel.
You have no idea how many things people are doing just because this is the way that they've heard from a friend, neighbor or so... And not always it is the right thing to do.
Fortunately in this case, adding the 2T oil is a good thing, but I am a little disappointed that the person who promotes this thing most is telling: It's OK, I know why, I have the proof, but I can't (ain't allowed to) tell you...
Ding ding..., another 2p in the life's jukebox...
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Atrix
Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 18
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Posted: 5th Aug 2010 9:10 am
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Yes, Alex, I can fully understand the need for more scientifically-based information on the benefits of 2-t-oil. But not always life gives you a detailed description of how and why it works Sometimes you have to rely on empirical knowledge. Numerous reports of people who tried this and are satisfied with the result are completely sufficient for me. Of course, I would be glad too, if I saw these advantages verified on paper
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ou toppie
Joined: 18 Mar 2010
Posts: 28
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Posted: 9th Aug 2010 5:36 pm
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YF
Many thanks for your suggestions, and I agree with your comments re 500ppm and the environment.
My fl2 has been using 500ppm diesel now for 58k klm and I have consistantly changed the engine oil at HALF the recommended period ( in order to get rid of the build up of sulphuric acid). Would you comment on whether you feel the 500ppm diesel, which I have been using, has been providing sufficient lubrication for the fuel system components? and is it too late to start with the 2stoke ie has the damage already been done?
OT
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yamaha-fan
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
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Posted: 1st Sep 2010 2:06 pm
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Hi ou toppie, your first question is difficult to judge as many other parameters will have to be considered.
But it is never too late to add the recommended dosis of 2-T oil to your diesel. As the 2-T oil has an astonishing cleaning effect on deposits build up in the engine and related parts (mainly soot and sulphor) you may experience some noise for a very short while (loosened deposits rattle in the exhaust), but such noise is normal and will stop soon.
YF
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ou toppie
Joined: 18 Mar 2010
Posts: 28
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2010 8:17 am
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Many Thanks YF
Will start with the 2T and monitor the smoke etc.
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Missing Link
Joined: 25 Aug 2010
Posts: 29
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Posted: 6th Sep 2010 10:59 pm
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Can you stil buy Castrol-R, it may not be as good but used to smell wonderful.
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jjasper
Joined: 07 Jan 2010
Posts: 15
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Posted: 7th Sep 2010 8:47 am
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up the motor