yamaha-fan wrote:

Why our car manufacturers do not officially allow the homoeophatic addition of 2-stroke oil to the diesel fuel has many reasons, mostly of legal nature Besides this, which car manufacturer has any interest in excessive reliability of their engines? Their repair shops will have great problems.
Meanwhile the "2-stroke-oil to diesel" issue has attracted the interest of a number of Universities in Germany, as this 2-stroke oil has shown to have amazing poperties if added in a small dosis to diesel fuel (1:200), especially the positive impact on air pollution, reduced fuel consumption and improved long term reliability of the diesel engine. The pro and con discussions will go on for a while. But as soon as an accademic report has been published by one of our Universities, this will change very fast.

YF

Thankyou YF for your usual thorough and knowledgeable reply.....

Quote:

mostly of legal nature

Quote:

as soon as an accademic report has been published by one of our Universities, this will change very fast.

yamaha-fan wrote:

We are all aware that the TD4 engine is a cooperation between Peugeot and Ford, and Peugeot demands motor oil for their TD4 of a much higher quality than Ford. How come?
Yamaha-Fan

Goldstone69: I am not allowed to detail the legal reasons but think of warranty issues between part manufacturer and car manufacturer.
The two Universities which are conducting professional tests (in the laboratory and on the road) will require approx. 6 months to be able to produce a reliable documentation. Meanwhile the students have been requested to add 2-stroke oil to their diesel and to report their experience by filling in questionaires.

mburton2: I do not know your source of information. The Ford norm 913B as recommended by Landrover for our Freely 2 has a reduced HTHS value, that means a reduced shearing stability in order to reduce the diesel consumption. Why Ford/Landrover have chosen this route I do not know, and engine-engineers I have spoken to confirm that a reduced HTHS value is exactly what should be avoided in modern engines. The oil industry spends a lot of money in research work to increase the HTHS value of motor oils by restructuring the molecular chain of the oil. And yes, it is a fact that a high HTHS value does have an impact on fuel consumption. But what is better: burning your motor oil with lots of soot everywhere and thereby damaging your engine and your DPF (soot particle filter) if you use motor oil with low HTHS value, or using the best motor oil you can get with a high HTHS value, therby keeping your engine well greased, clean and healthy at the cost of slightly higher fuel consumption, if any.To be frank, I cannot understand this discussion at all: all reputed car manufacturers do recommend or even demand the use of motor oils with a specific (high) HTHS value, and have developed their own norm like Mercedes, BMW, Audi and VW, and also Peugeot (PSA) to make sure that you use the appropriate motor oil. Only Ford and Landrover seem to have never heard about this and still recommend motor oils which, to put it mildy, will serve its purpose, but for how long?

YF

yamaha-fan wrote:

Goldstone69: I am not allowed to detail the legal reasons but think of warranty issues between part manufacturer and car manufacturer.
The two Universities which are conducting professional tests (in the laboratory and on the road) will require approx. 6 months to be able to produce a reliable documentation. Meanwhile the students have been requested to add 2-stroke oil to their diesel and to report their experience by filling in questionaires.

YF

One quick addition: if we speak of 2-stroke oil to be added to the diesel fuel it MUST be a 2-stroke oil of low ash content, such as Liqui Moly No. 1052 (1 liter bottle) or Meguin semi synthetic. NEVER use fully synthetic 2-stroke oil, besides the cost). 2-stroke oil has very similar chemical properties as diesel oil, and this is the reason why diesel and 2-stroke oil do not mix but compound (if I have used the right word). Once diesel and 2-stroke oil have chemically compounded, you cannot seperate them again.
2-stroke oil will increase the OZ-value (Oktan) of diesel oil by 3 to 5 points (OZ=x*OZ("2-T oil) + (1-x)* OZ (diesel fuel)). 2-stroke oil does not contain any Zinc-components, and metal-organic additives are virtually absent. This is the main reason why 2-stroke oil burnes cleaner than diesel oil.
You can (theoretically) run a diesel engine with 100% 2-stroke oil with no harm. Behind closed doors tests of reputed car manufacturers have shown that a dosis of 1:200 is the quantitiy of 2-stroke oil to be added to the diesel fuel to achieve the wanted results. I have personally witnessed the running in of re-build/repaired diesel engines with a dosis of 1 litre of 2-stroke oil in the fuel to be mechanically on the safe side.

YF

Yamaha-Fan, I always admire your scientific replies!
One more question for you my friend: As you said diesel in some countries may not be as clean/proper as in some others. I'm afraid that Greece is amogst them. In such cases, is 2-stroke oil addition still recommended?

Hello Defkalion,
you may have noticed that I am very interested in oils and its derivates as long as this relates to cars.
I am not a chemist or engineer, only a lawyer who works mostly for the car and oil industry, and in this capacitiy I hear, read and negotiate many technical issues. I have specialized in international contracting and its applicable laws incl. warranty and guarantee issues.
To come back to your question: a clear YES!
You can improve the negative impacts of burning minor fuel (diesel) by adding 2-stroke oil (2T oil), thereby increasing the Oktan value by 3-5 points, and reducing the soot to a very large extent (in the range of 50%). Our TD4 diesel engines do have a turbo loader driven by the diesel exhaust fumes. Such fumes do contain soot and mineral particles. Such soot will (also) deposit on the turbo-blades and its bearings and slowly, slowly reduce its function. You can delay this considerably by adding 2T-oil to the diesel, which will reduce the soot deposit considerably. Mercedes in its engine research centre have conducted extensive tests with extremely positive results. As per my information, such tests have not been conducted to prove the capabilities of 2T-oil but to test various alloys with regard to mechanical stability under high pressure, rotation and heat. One of such test has been conducted with the addition of 2T-oil, and the turbo blades came out of this test virtually clean.
Two of our Technical Universities have recognised, among others, the positive impact on air pollution by adding 2T-oil to the diesel fuel and their research work is in progress.

YF

yamaha-fan wrote:

thereby increasing the Oktan value by 3-5 points, and reducing the soot to a very large extent (in the range of 50%).

I think in the UK if you got stopped in a Highways Agency roadside check you might also have a problem with the Revenue Man if you added 2 stroke oil to diesel They used to get very worked up if you added winter additive to prevent waxing of diesel How can carbon have a footprint, it has no feet?
Now driving - RRE Coupe Dynamic Lux Auto with Plus pack, Fuji White, Ebony, SD4 with tow pack
Gone - 2010MY FFRR TDv8 Stornoway and Ivory, Privacy - the pace of a TDv8 RRS, the incomparable grace of a Range Rover
Gone but will be missed- RRS Tdv8 HSE Stornoway Grey with Ebony Leather
Gone (only a little missed) RRS Tdv6 2.7SE Giverny Green/Aspen
Defender 90 County HT in Epsom Green

Tim, if I understand correctly from what YF says, 2-stroke oil cannot be traced in diesel as it desolves (or something like that). I guess if 2-stroke oil has so much to offer to your car (reliability, cleaner burning, better consumption) with no harm done, then why not use it? I wander what additives diesel plus/extra/etc (which is more expensive) has? It could be a 1/200 portion of 2-stroke oil...

good point Def.


Is that how bad it's got in the UK - that you can be stopped and have your fuel checked ?

Yes it has and yes the vehicle inspectorate are ruthless in trying to track misuse, because people who use tax free fuel (Red Diesel) have been trying to fleece the tax payers here by using fuel meant for tractors and fishing boats in their cars or worse, selling it! There is hardly a week goes by (especially on market days!) when the inspectors are not stopping any vehicle that might be a farm vehicle and taking fuel samples. If the government reduced the taxation on fuel then people wouldn't need to defraud the revenue! How can carbon have a footprint, it has no feet?
Now driving - RRE Coupe Dynamic Lux Auto with Plus pack, Fuji White, Ebony, SD4 with tow pack
Gone - 2010MY FFRR TDv8 Stornoway and Ivory, Privacy - the pace of a TDv8 RRS, the incomparable grace of a Range Rover
Gone but will be missed- RRS Tdv8 HSE Stornoway Grey with Ebony Leather
Gone (only a little missed) RRS Tdv6 2.7SE Giverny Green/Aspen
Defender 90 County HT in Epsom Green

But if you are stopped - then your fuel will not be red anyway.

Also - there are different varieties of diesel (standard, extra..) plus (as Def says) you may have used an additive bought at the garage - meaning there must be a wide band of "acceptable" diesels as far as the Inspectors are concerned.

Plus you can show your legit receipts.........


Anyway - not really an issue for me....................

Well, what Tim says is correct. The same in Germany, as diesel fuel used by the farming-industry or in any household as fuel for their central heating is reduced in tax. So what they do to identify this "reduced tax fuel" is to color it red. Even the slightest hint of this read color in your diesel car tank will bring you in trouble with regard to tax evasion.
But 2-T oil is not tracable in your fuel at all and it has the same color as diesel. You should first fill in the 330 ccl of 2-T oil in your tank and then fill up with diesel. One of my friends is a judge in a High Court and he drives only cars with diesel engines. After some problems with his injection pumps I advised him to use 2-T oil, which he has heard, but -as most of this forum members- he has been reluctant to do for legal reasons.
After I have shown him the Mercedes DVD as documentation of the Paris-Beijing marathon, and after he has listened to the explanation of adding 2-T oil to all cars for reliability reasons, he wanted to know details.
I have handed over to him my car keys and encuraged him to start and drive my car in comparison to his Mercedes. What he immediately noticed was the absence of diesel-engine hammering when cold, and the quietness of the engine in general in comparison to his engine. So guess what he does now! And he regrets that he did not do this much earlier.

YF

YF, a question if I may,
Would it be ok to use Shell Advance VSX2 2 stroke semi-synthetic oil for this purpose?
I also came across Shell Advance Scooter 2, would that do the trick too?
Any preference between the two?

Cheers,
CK