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jules



Member Since: 13 Dec 2007
Location: The Wilds of Warwickshire
Posts: 1168

United Kingdom 2015 Freelander 2 SD4 SE Auto Firenze Red
Reliability

Am I right in thinking that the reliability of modern vehicles (which has improved over the the last 3 decades at least ) is, in the main, due to improvements in the mechanical components of the car rather than the the ever increasingly complex electrical side ?

eg A worn wheel bearing makes a noise, the garage agrees and changes the wheel bearing and the noise disappears. As opposed to the car goes intermittently into limp home mode and garage runs diagnostics and over multiple visits changes a variety or senors/control units etc but in the end it turns out to be a bad earth.

This is just my impression from reading what appears on car forums Jules

Post #363607 13th Jan 2019 12:54 am
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Stuartc



Member Since: 01 Dec 2014
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 2085

Australia 2015 Freelander 2 SD4 HSE Auto Aintree Green

The flaw is see in your statement about diagnostics/electrical is that not all diagnostic equipment is built equal.
If you use the correct diagnostic equipment which most independent mechanics don’t have then it will not tell you exactly the problem is, ie “short circuit to xyz” “open circuit to xyz” etc. And before anybody accuses me of being LR dealer bias I’m absolutely not as my next point is knowing how it works and as a general rule JLR dealers are not allowed to have access or the chance to learn how to diagnose the problem.
So if you find someone who knows what they’re doing (unlikely to be a dealer) then treat them like gold! MY15
Tyre Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS)
Surround Camera System (WIP)
InControl Apps
Meridian Premium Surround Sound
Digital Audio Broadcast
Timed Climate
Cruise ECO Data
Follow Me Home Reverse
Extra Features Menu
Picture In Motion
4x4i screen (TBA)
Digital Broadcast TV
Meridian Rear Media with WIFI
Factory Powered Tailgate (WIP)

Post #363609 13th Jan 2019 2:47 am
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Mikey



Member Since: 07 Jun 2008
Location: Dundee
Posts: 522

Scotland 2012 Freelander 2 SD4 HSE Auto Baltic Blue

As above. Our diagnostic machine cost us £8,500, with an annual fee of a further £1,100

And while it’s good at what it does, without some sort of knowledge on how to work it and interpret the codes, it’s still a long way off telling you exactly what the fault is

Post #363616 13th Jan 2019 7:18 am
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jules



Member Since: 13 Dec 2007
Location: The Wilds of Warwickshire
Posts: 1168

United Kingdom 2015 Freelander 2 SD4 SE Auto Firenze Red

Mikey : "...it’s still a long way off telling you exactly what the fault is"

And thats a big problem for the consumer - diagnosing electrical faults can be very time consuming, and thus costly. Garages resort to swapping components in and out.

So why do cars suffer so many electrical problems - is it mainly due to software or hardware issues ?

Electrical things can be made to be very reliable, I've got electrical devices that have run for years without problems. So why do we see so many electrical failures in cars ? Jules

Post #363633 13th Jan 2019 11:58 am
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dondiddy



Member Since: 16 Apr 2017
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 418

United Kingdom 2012 Freelander 2 TD4 HSE Manual Firenze Red

Electrical items on a vehicle have to work in a very harsh environment. They are subjected to extremes of temperatures with heat and cold and are subjected to additional stresses such as shocks, moisture and vibration. I think that they are very reliable given that they are built to a cost. I have just traded in my 2012 Freelander which has done 154,000mls and has had no electrical(or mechanical issues) what so ever. I cannot remember back to when I last had a vehicle that ever had any electrical problems and I average around 30,000mls or so a year .As for household items being more reliable, have you noticed the amount of almost new dysons, flat screen tv`s fridges etc that are in your local council recycling centre!

Post #363637 13th Jan 2019 1:03 pm
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Andy131



Member Since: 09 Dec 2009
Location: Manchester
Posts: 1332

United Kingdom 

Mechanically things have got much better - when did you last see a 3 year old car fail it's MOT?
In my youth it was common, as was not touching a second hand car with 50K on the clock as it would fall apart.

Now 10 year old cars look fresh, engines regularly last over 200k, we moan if a clutch fails at 100k (15k was my normal).

Lucas Prince of darkness was no joke, electrical connections on 2 year old car would corrode and fail (points/condensers anyone) - dynamo brushes and regulators were service items.

So physical electrical items are many times better than they were, but the growth of electrical items has been exponential, think about it - a Vauxhall Viva had no electrics in the door (so no door loom) now with central locking, powered mirrors, temperature sensors, and heated wing mirrors all the norm.

But Software mmmmm 90% of the work takes about 20% of the time, the other 10% of the work is massively more expensive compared to the benefit, so launch it as it, and when enough people complain, do some of the 10% of the work with a skeleton team funded by warranty rather than by product development.

And yes I do write software for a living Tangiers Orange - gone, missing her
Replaced by Ewok what a mistake - now a happy Disco Sport owner

Post #363638 13th Jan 2019 1:15 pm
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jules



Member Since: 13 Dec 2007
Location: The Wilds of Warwickshire
Posts: 1168

United Kingdom 2015 Freelander 2 SD4 SE Auto Firenze Red

dondiddy wrote:
I cannot remember back to when I last had a vehicle that ever had any electrical problems


Ive been lucky too with my Discoverys and Freelanders; all have been free of electrical problems. However my 3 series BMW was not so good - had repeated problems with the adaptive headlights and the central locking receiver; several visits to dealership whilst under warranty and then I finally fixed the central locking problem myself with silicone sealant. I just gave up trying to fix the headlights (they would intermittently get stuck, pointing in the wrong direction and the only way to correct it was to stop and turn off the engine, restart and wait for the headlights to recenter themselves). No garage could tell me what was wrong - the headlamp units were changed twice under warranty (approx £2000 each time)

One reads of people having a terrible time trying to get electrical issues fixed on very expensive cars and I wonder if electrical reliability will become the Achelles heel of EVs once they are mass produced at affordable prices. In theory they should be very reliable. Jules

Post #363659 13th Jan 2019 4:27 pm
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jules



Member Since: 13 Dec 2007
Location: The Wilds of Warwickshire
Posts: 1168

United Kingdom 2015 Freelander 2 SD4 SE Auto Firenze Red

dondiddy wrote:
As for household items being more reliable, have you noticed the amount of almost new dysons, flat screen tv`s fridges etc that are in your local council recycling centre!


Im not sure that can be all put down as electrical reliabilty - many reasons for getting rid of these things:
eg
physically damaged at home by owner
not what the owner wants anymore
owner not prepared to repair simple things like drive belts or pumps
failure of non-electrical components


I expect to get 10 years of service out of my white goods and often get more. Our Fridge freezer is 15 yrs old - it has had a new interior bulb though Very Happy
I binned our Dyson DC03 last year after 20 years of service. Jules

Post #363661 13th Jan 2019 4:47 pm
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jules



Member Since: 13 Dec 2007
Location: The Wilds of Warwickshire
Posts: 1168

United Kingdom 2015 Freelander 2 SD4 SE Auto Firenze Red

Andy131 wrote:

So physical electrical items are many times better than they were, but the growth of electrical items has been exponential...


So are you saying that despite the improved reliability of individual mechanical and electrical components, the "exponential " rise in electrical complexity has to an extent outweighed the improvements and made electrical failures more likely than mechanical one and also harder to solve ? Jules

Post #363663 13th Jan 2019 4:53 pm
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theglassman



Member Since: 08 Jan 2010
Location: Oxfordshire
Posts: 48

United Kingdom 2014 Freelander 2 SD4 Metropolis LE Auto Fuji White

Andy131 wrote:
Mechanically things have got much better - when did you last see a 3 year old car fail it's MOT?
In my youth it was common, as was not touching a second hand car with 50K on the clock as it would fall apart.

Now 10 year old cars look fresh, engines regularly last over 200k, we moan if a clutch fails at 100k (15k was my normal).

Lucas Prince of darkness was no joke, electrical connections on 2 year old car would corrode and fail (points/condensers anyone) - dynamo brushes and regulators were service items.

So physical electrical items are many times better than they were, but the growth of electrical items has been exponential, think about it - a Vauxhall Viva had no electrics in the door (so no door loom) now with central locking, powered mirrors, temperature sensors, and heated wing mirrors all the norm.

But Software mmmmm 90% of the work takes about 20% of the time, the other 10% of the work is massively more expensive compared to the benefit, so launch it as it, and when enough people complain, do some of the 10% of the work with a skeleton team funded by warranty rather than by product development.

And yes I do write software for a living


Reminds me of the old joke told me by a Hungarian taxi driver...”you know why the Brits like warm beer? ....because Lucas made the refrigeration”
Boom, boom! I know I left it somewhere... but I can�t remember what it was.
2008 TD4HSE - gone but much loved.
2014MY SD4 Metropolis - very much loved.

Post #363678 13th Jan 2019 8:03 pm
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Andy131



Member Since: 09 Dec 2009
Location: Manchester
Posts: 1332

United Kingdom 

[quote="jules"]

Andy131 wrote:

So are you saying that despite the improved reliability of individual mechanical and electrical components, the "exponential " rise in electrical complexity has to an extent outweighed the improvements and made electrical failures more likely than mechanical one and also harder to solve ?


Not harder to fix, harder to diagnose - how many vehicle technicians get to thoroughly know the intricacies of the vehicles they work on? often they are out of the dealer network after 3 years, and how many independents spend as much as the franchised dealers on training? Tangiers Orange - gone, missing her
Replaced by Ewok what a mistake - now a happy Disco Sport owner

Post #363683 13th Jan 2019 8:12 pm
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jules



Member Since: 13 Dec 2007
Location: The Wilds of Warwickshire
Posts: 1168

United Kingdom 2015 Freelander 2 SD4 SE Auto Firenze Red

It doesnt bode well for the future IMO

Here is a Tesla 3 - built by Edward Scissorhands (according to the comments)

 Jules


Last edited by jules on 14th Jan 2019 11:10 am. Edited 1 time in total

Post #363688 13th Jan 2019 10:27 pm
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Lightwater



Member Since: 21 Aug 2014
Location: Sydney NB
Posts: 2066

Australia 2013 Freelander 2 2.0T SE Auto Fuji White

jules wrote:
dondiddy wrote:
As for household items being more reliable, have you noticed the amount of almost new dysons, flat screen tv`s fridges etc that are in your local council recycling centre!


Im not sure that can be all put down as electrical reliabilty - many reasons for getting rid of these things:
eg
physically damaged at home by owner
not what the owner wants anymore
owner not prepared to repair simple things like drive belts or pumps
failure of non-electrical components


I expect to get 10 years of service out of my white goods and often get more. Our Fridge freezer is 15 yrs old - it has had a new interior bulb though Very Happy
I binned our Dyson DC03 last year after 20 years of service.

I added extra insulation to our fridge we bought in 1992, nevertheless I should replace i, but it is about 35% more efficient.

Our 800 watt vacuum of a decade died, bought a supposedly good quality vacuum which was 1600 watts which I was not happy about but that was all I could get, died in 18 months, (Dyson motors have horrendous energy consumption but they they only ever give power at the head which is a meaningless statement of watts the vacuum actually needs to run, my personal belief in that they seem to be burying watts consumed). Had enough & bought a 350/800 watt commercial vavcuum, which we only ever need to run it on 350 watts as it works too well, wish it had a lower setting for vacuuming more delicate stuff, & it has 8 litre dust capacity, & you can buy parts easily if needed. Also I noted that the motor has a 1000 hour warranty, never seen that on a domestic vacuum! & It actually sucks with some grunt like it has a V8.

Now to cars, my Freelanders has had a few issues but no different from previous cars, but I don't see why it should not be any less reliable. At the end of the day it is Ford / Volvo mongrel animal! Procrastination, mankind's greatest labour saving device!

2x 1kg ABE, carpet in doors. ARB TPMS, 3 compressors heatsink fan cooled 4L air tank. 4x 10L fuel tanks on LR roof racks & 2x 5L. Highly modified 28L Waeco fridge, 3x 26AH gel battery, 120w solar, awning, acoustic insulation. 2 spare Pirelli Scorpion AT Plus 255/60R18 Fuji/Almond/Dark Chestnut. Petrol 10.48L/100 (26.95mpg) inc 500kg payload

Post #363691 14th Jan 2019 12:47 am
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Dartman the one



Member Since: 04 Apr 2013
Location: Limassol Cyprus
Posts: 1091

England 2012 Freelander 2 SD4 HSE Auto Orkney Grey

I don't follow your statement over Watts, do you run an Ammeter attached to your electrical equipment or have you some other form of measurement of power used? Most Dysons die due to owners not cleaning filters at regular intervals or over stretching the hoses, don't know about Oz but in the UK Dyson run a service system that for about £60 just about refurbishes the machine, though make sure it's Dyson, there are quite a few con merchants about offering the same sounding service where parts are extra.
We have had four Dysons since 1990, all of which exceeded 10 years service three are definitely still running and performing as new, the only disappointment was the V8 which though powerful on full power had very limited battery life ( not helped by the lady who does who continually switched it on and off on each sweep) We now have a light animal corded that has so much suction that it has to run on the half setting on the head as it's so difficult to push over our MOD supplied short pile carpets.
I suspect most electrical items die for similar reasons as cars, problems in the loom connections and lack of servicing, All my flat screen TVs are still running the eldest being 2005 and have been trouble free except for the Panasonic 47" and the vagaries of the Cello sensitivity to signals.
edited due incorrect year of TV my PC is slightly to the right of Genghis
2012 HSE SD4 In Orkney Grey


Last edited by Dartman the one on 14th Jan 2019 7:37 am. Edited 1 time in total

Post #363692 14th Jan 2019 5:39 am
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Lightwater



Member Since: 21 Aug 2014
Location: Sydney NB
Posts: 2066

Australia 2013 Freelander 2 2.0T SE Auto Fuji White

I do & additionally use a AC/DC Kyoritsu 2046R cat IV clamp meter. Procrastination, mankind's greatest labour saving device!

2x 1kg ABE, carpet in doors. ARB TPMS, 3 compressors heatsink fan cooled 4L air tank. 4x 10L fuel tanks on LR roof racks & 2x 5L. Highly modified 28L Waeco fridge, 3x 26AH gel battery, 120w solar, awning, acoustic insulation. 2 spare Pirelli Scorpion AT Plus 255/60R18 Fuji/Almond/Dark Chestnut. Petrol 10.48L/100 (26.95mpg) inc 500kg payload

Post #363693 14th Jan 2019 5:48 am
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